Thursday, December 16, 2010
Q – Need more clarification, how the disciples didn’t saw Jesus on the cross? And if he resurrected in human body not in spirit, what is the problem of that?
Regarding the disciple near the cross, let’s compare the 4 events as mentioned by Mark, Mathew, Luke and John:
1- Mathew 27:
55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.
57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
2- Mark 15:
40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
3- Luke 23:
49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar
50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:
4- John 19:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
If you compare the first 3 references, they all agree on the following:
- They were women watching the crucifixion far away, and didn’t come near until he was dead (supposedly).
- There was no mentioning to any disciple standing near the cross, except Joseph who was a good man and came at night to burry Jesus, and he was not among the 12 disciples of Jesus, those who are mentioned in Mathew 10:
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
The story of John contradicts with the 3 (Mark, Mathew, Luke) before:
- That Jesus talked with his mother before his death, which is very strange!!!
- Where all others tales say clearly that he screamed and died before the women came nearby, because there were soldiers and it’s not until Jesus death, earth shaking and full darkness so they left the scene and let the women become close to the cross.
- No mentioning for the name of this disciple clearly, is it Joseph? or someone called John, but unknown if he was John brother of James or a new one??
- John’s Gospel was the fourth among the 4, and the first 3 contradict with him in this detail, which is logically to follow the first story because they were closer to Jesus life and not to consider the one of John.
So regarding the 3rd point that I mentioned in the list and after reviewing deeply all the above facts (not copying from an Islamic site, because it was a summary of a debate on TV show), that really there was no one near the cross and not his disciples or some of them or someone known among them near the women or near the cross, which means that the following argument is still correct:
[3- Did the disciples saw him on the cross? The answer NO, they already run away:]
Regarding your 2nd point:
“for how can a man die and be alive? However, since Jesus was God made man, his human agency had died, while is divine agency was still alive. Since God cannot die, Jesus was still alive as God, although his flesh had been killed. By setting out to prove Jesus wasn't God, ironically, you prove just the opposite, as only God made man could have his fleshly body killed, and yet still be truly alive and able to resurrect Himself. ”
I read many times your argument, and “ironically” also discovered that you broke 4 of Jesus words "laws":
1- Jesus explained that Humans after resurrection will be like angles, and not in human bodies, so if I have to believe you or Jesus, I would prefer Jesus (PBUH) for sure.
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. [Luke 20: 33-36]
2- “as only God made man could have his fleshly body killed, and yet still be truly alive and able to resurrect Himself. ”
You used "being resurrected from death" as proof that the dead body is and ONLY is a God !!, which is a false argument for sure, because it also defeats many miracles for Jesus who brought people from death into life again, and those people are not Gods for sure, so this argument can’t be used to prove the he is a God.
There are many other stories where God had brought back from death people, such as Ezra, and the 70 men with Moses, etc..
3- About “God made man”, I will not argue with you on this, because since 2000 years all Christians were and still debating over this statement, and whether Jesus has resurrected as Human or as spirit or as divine, and every time they meet to reach a decision they were divided more and new additional groups of Christians show up, I will refer you to the following page, read it when you have time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_theology
4- The most important is Jonas sign, Jesus stressed that this generation will not be given a sign except the same given of Jonas:
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. [Mathew 12: 38-40]
In your explanation:
- Jesus was dead on cross, Jesus was dead inside his tomb, and alive later on.
- But Jonah, was alive on the ship and when they threw him into sea, alive inside the whale, and alive after being thrown out from the whale.
How Jesus says it will be exactly the same SIGN, and with your explanation that God divine was alive but the human has died !!, then there is no similarity between both signs at ALL, so shall I believe you or believe Jesus Prophecy that it will be exactly the same, here also I prefer to believe in Jesus (PBUH).
In conclusion, don’t you see that are too many gaps in this story that can’t fit with basic logic, such as:
- Pilate, the Roman governor was happy to see Jesus, and tried many times to set him free because he didn’t see that he's done anything wrong.
- If this is the case, why he would kill him by whipping him hardly, (as exaggerated in Passion of Christ movie), knowing that in Luke it’s mentioned that he was hit by hands only !!
- How a young man could die after 3 hours on the cross only, while the others didn’t die although they were in prison before him and tortured severely more than him.
- They didn’t break his leg, if he was still alive he would scream for sure, but they didn’t test it, so they wouldn’t be sure.
- How blood and water will come out from a dead body if there is no pulse, the heart was still working, biologically he was alive for sure ...
- Why Mary Magdalene was in hurry to see him although the 3 days was not passed yet, unless she was sure that he was alive and didn’t die, and why they buried him in a large room above and not beneath Earth, so he still have air enough to breath..
- Why he asked for food the first thing? Because he was so hungry since Friday, there is no other explanation.
- In addition to the following questions that have no answer logically:
Ø Assume that you were resurrected again, will you eat the first thing will do ever?
Ø And how he was resurrected and the wounds still hurt him?
Ø Why not in a brand new form as a new born human being?
Ø Why he didn’t show himself to the others people, to the Jews and the Romans, to show that they didn’t win? And that he stayed alive? So they will believe all in him and follow him?
Ø Why he didn’t prove such theory, just in doing a very simple thing: go back to Jerusalem and show himself alive and standing in front of all people that he has resurrected again and then ascend to heaven?
Ø Why !!!!!!!!!!!
The most important thing, that don’t you think that all explanation of Jesus birth or death has no solid platform and there are only guesses in Christianity, and don’t you think that if Jesus was really sent by God that he will not send someone else to settle all these arguments which last for centuries and misled a huge number of people???
Of course, Almighty God did that and he sent prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and allocated a chapter in the holy Quran in the name of Marry to clarify this issue, and mentioned Jesus (PBUH) 25 times in the Holy Quran, where Muhammad (PBUH) himself was only mentioned 4 times by name.
Please read the below story of Jesus birth from Chapter of Marry very carefully:
And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad SAW , the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east (16)
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibril (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects. (17)
She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Gracious (Allâh) from you, if you do fear Allâh." (18)
(The angel) said: "I am only a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son." (19)
She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?" (20)
He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allâh): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allâh), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allâh).' " (21)
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (i.e. Bethlehem valley about 4-6 miles from Jerusalem). (22)
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (23)
Then [the babe 'Īsā (Jesus) or Jibril (Gabriel)] cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you; (24)
"And shake the trunk of date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe-dates upon you." (25)
"So eat and drink and be glad, And if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Gracious (Allâh) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'" (26)
Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariyy (a mighty thing). (Tafsir At-Tabari) (27)
"O sister (i.e. the like) of Hârûn (Aaron) ! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman." (28)
Then she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (29)
"He ['Īsā (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" (30)
"And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live." (31)
"And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest. (32)
"And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! [Day of Judgment]" (33)
Such is 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute) (34)
It befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Īsā (Jesus) is the son of Allâh]. Glorified (and Exalted is He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is (35)
['Īsā (Jesus) said]: "And verily Allâh is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. (Allâh's religion of Islâmic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets)." (36)
Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about 'Īsā (Jesus) A.S.], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Īsā (Jesus) is the son of Allâh] from the Meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire). (37)
How clearly will they (polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) see and hear, the Day when they will appear before Us! But the Zalimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) today are in plain error (38)
And warn them (O Muhammad SAW) of the Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not (39)
Verily! We will inherit the earth and whatsoever is thereon. And to Us they all shall be returned, (40)
Posted by Abdallah Muslim at 4:07 PM