Debate with a Priest (9) – NO you are wrong, God will not kill himself for us !!

Abdallah Reply:

Dear My Friend,

Sorry for my very late reply, but I was really busy in finishing my research on Quran miracles, that it took many months to work on (you can check in on my blog: A Debate with an Atheist).

I returned back to our letters and read them all again and I will try to answer on some questions that I didn’t answer yet, but before that I will comment on some of your replies, and I will try to be short as much as I can, (while reviewing my reply, I think I didn’t succeed in making it short again!!):

- Islam is superior on all religions, yes it’s true, it’s not a claim and it’s already proven, search in whole universe, do you see a religion that calls for worshiping God only without any partner, to worship a God that is not similar to anything or any creation on Earth, or never exist or dwelled on Earth !! Except Islam..

Please check my article: Why Islam is different? On:

http://debatewithmuslim.blogspot.com/2011/01/q-why-islam-is-different.html

- No comparison to Muslim prayers that are billions of times per day and fasting a complete month per year with any other religion and the most important they all are dedicated to real GOD (the only creator of this universe), knowing that only the prayers to God will be accepted and all others will be vanished whatever they were from, ALLAH says: 

وقدمنا الى ما عملوا من عمل فجعلناه هباء منثورا

And We shall turn to whatever deeds they (disbelievers, polytheists, sinners) did, and We shall make such deeds as scattered floating particles of dust. (25:23)

- When prophet Muhammad told about John the Baptist, this doesn’t mean that he heard that from someone human, definitely Not..

Debate with a Priest (8) – Would you change your religion ever?!

Abdallah,

I appreciate your reply. It may take me a few days to write back, I have not yet read your email but will do so the next chance I get. After that, I will reply. In my reply, however, I will try not to be so long - I presume neither of us are the fondest of extra-long replies, which ours seem to keep growing and growing. So I will try to keep my reply brief and to the point, though I cannot promise. 

Till then, God bless.

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Dear Abdallah,

Thank you for taking the time to write back. As I noted in my previous reply, I am going to try to say a lot without making my reply long. I simply do not always have all the time in the world to read and reply, hence why it has taken several days.

You wrote, “it’s superior of all religions because it’s from God, and what you can find and explain and work on it in Islam, you’ll never find it in other religion, because of that many of priests or rabbis or even Hindu scholars, who converted to Islam and studied”.

I agree that Hinduism is a fallacious religion – the teachings, much like Buddhism, are contradictory. There is no clear set of doctrines and teachings, there are thousands of Gods, and with a religious system that does not have a set teaching, I would personally find it difficult to accept as truth. As for the claim that Islam is “superior because it’s from God,” if I made this statement be it to an atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, or the like, they would tell me that I am using circular reasoning. I could reason the same thing and say that Christianity is superior than all other religions because it is from God, but great claims require great evidence.

“you will never find anything similar, that billions of people who leave their food and drink to fast for God sake only, and to give portion of their wealth for the poor, so our God forgive us on the day of Judgment.”

– There are many Christians who fast for God’s sake, as well as giving to the poor. The same is true of Judaism.

“Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) told us about a speech of John the Baptist…”

Debate with a Priest (7) – Islam as Religion of Peace, then why fighting people to enter Islam !! Evidences of Trinity..

Dear Abdullah,

I am well, my friend. I hope all is well with you and your family as well.

1 – Thank you – I’ll take a look at the link. Having mentioned the belief in seven universes clarifies the belief a bit for me, I appreciate it. To note, anytime you provide a link, I will always try to take a look at it.

2/3 – I agree that no one should worship Mary. The Bible in no place commands or hints that we should worship Mary. That is a widely-held Catholic doctrine (not all Catholics worship Mary of course, but many do), but I am a non-denominational Christian, and do not worship Mary.

“From above, whenever you give a person or anything other than God an attribute or name or action, that is limited only to God, then you are making him as God, and among this, when Christians call Jesus or Mary for help or support although they are humans and can’t hear them, then they are making them ‘Gods.’”

– I agree that Mary is human, and cannot hear us from Heaven. However, as I accept the Old and New Testament as God’s Word, 1^st Timothy 2:5, along with Hebrews 7:5, 8:6, 12:24, teach that Jesus is our mediator between us and the Father in Heaven, and is therefore “with [us] always” (Matthew 28:20).

“And now after understanding this concept, let’s see when Christians want to call for their help: what they mostly say: “O Jesus or O Mary help you us” !! And when entering the Churches, what are the statues and Idols that are filling all churches? They are idols of Jesus and Marry.. And what most Christians do when they want to pray in their rooms or in their streets or schools corners, they will stop in front of Marry and Jesus status and pray..”

Abdullah, most Christians do not worship Mary. This belief is generally restricted to Catholics, and I personally know many Catholics who refuse to worship Mary. Likewise, there are many Christians who will not worship statues of Jesus or images – I do not, nor do many other Christians I know. It is true that there are Christians who worship statues and images of Jesus, but it is also true that many do not. The few cannot be representative of the whole, any more than a few Muslims would represent all of Islam. Though the Catholic doctrine generally teaches that Mary is a mediator and is Holy, that she should be worship, I do not worship her, and there are many who do not either.

Debate with a Priest (6) – Difference between Jesus Religion and Christianity!!

Dear Abdallah,

First off, this is a bit of a long response, so I understand if it takes a day or two to read through or reply.

1) Thank you, figured I would ask regardless. And yes, I agree that there is only one path to God. Even if all paths led to the same door, that door is locked - and only one key fits. It is that we disagree on which key fits.

But thankfully, that does not hinder our conversation! I do agree, however, that much of the world's religions have arisen due to demonic influence, but obviously not all. If you wish to learn more about those religions, I have more material on them, I can tell you what I know if you wish.

2) Appreciate it, thanks! I will simply continue to read the Qu'ran then.

3) This is where discussion begins. I will try to answer your points one at a time - I apologize if this email response is a bit long, it likely will be. You had said:

"Jesus Christ, is one of the mightiest messengers of God, and as all messengers of God they were muslims and call for Islam, which is to submit someone’s will to God’s will, and the proof he was a muslim is in the bible:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [Mathew 7:21] He was not crucified as Christian claims but was saved by God and raised to 2^nd heaven where he will be waiting for his second return, as ALLAH will not leave us alone in face of the Anti-Christ and all the devils with him (especially the beast)."

First of all, would you be able to elaborate a bit on the "second heaven?" I've heard it mentioned before that there are different levels or different heavens according to Islam, I should like to be informed on that belief, if possible.

Second, let's examine the text: "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." 

Debate with a Priest (5) – What is the right Path to GOD !!

 Thank you for your information, Abdallah.

 
1) Thank you, that clears up a bit.

2) Though I'd known about much of what you described, I wanted clarification from a Muslim. Appreciate it. Likewise with 3).

4) Though I may disagree about whether or not is has been accurately preserved, I appreciate the information. (Not attempting to get into a debate, merely stating my opinion)
5) and 6) - I will read those this week, thank you. As for the translation, that may help a bit more.

If I may ask a few more questions?

To be sure, the reason my email response is rather short is due to the fact it is early in the morning and just returned home from a elsewhere, otherwise I may be sociable, so I apologize if my response seems short.

1) What can you tell me about Sikhism? From what I understand, Guru Nanak sought to create a hybrid religion of Hinduism and Islam, but ended up creating a separate religion. I know a few things about Sikhism, but perhaps you know a bit more about it.

2) What can you tell me about Baha'i? I understand it originally stemmed from Shi'ite Islam, but Mirza Husaym Ali declared himself to be the manifestation of God and proceeded to introduce a new religion, in which the followers believe that all religions are essentially equal. What do you know of it?

3) Can you tell me what the Qu'ran says about the attributes of Allah? For example, if someone were to ask me what the Old and New Testament said about God, I would point them to passages about being a God of love yet at the same time having the nature of a judge, to judge sin. In terms of the Qu'ran, what does it tell us about Allah?

4) What do you, all arguments aside, believe about Christianity and the Christian Jesus, and why?

5) This one may come across a bit odd: what do you know of/think about the Book of Mormon? I am not Mormon, merely seeking your opinion. It is not often I get to speak with a Muslim, not that you are the only one, but as I said, you are the only one I know who has a passion for what you believe.

Though I may also disagree about Christ as God, since from my Ministry you can determine that we defend the deity of Christ and the Trinity as one God (much like a pyramid - one, but three sides yet at the same time one), I understand that Islam views this as worship of three distinct gods, but that is not my view.

Debate with a Priest (4) – Few Questions about Islam..

After a break of few months of communications between me and the priest, I received the following message from him:

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Hello, Abdallah

I hope all is well with you. You may or may not remember be. We'd talked before on the comments section. I am not sending this email because of the previous conversation we had, but for personal reasons. I know that (forgive me if my understanding is incorrect), technically, Muslims are not supposed to converse much with Non-Muslims, particularly Christians or Jews, however, I understand that it depends on the person, so again, forgive me if I am incorrect in my assumption.

I had hoped to email you for this reason: though we may disagree about great many things, I have been trying to learn what I could about the different world religions and denominations.

Recently I'd covered Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Amish and Mennonites, Sikhism, and the one I have studied the most and read (and own) the most books on is Islam. It is not that I misunderstand Islam, and indeed I have learned more about it since you and I have last talked, so my understanding is a bit clearer, but at the same time, there are things I have been curious about, and just like, if you had a question about Christians it may be best to ask a Christian, the only Muslim I know (who, last I'd checked, was rather passionate about his beliefs, much like I am with Christianity), is you.

Debate with a Priest (3) – Jesus as Son of God or Messenger of God ?

Abdallah,

There were so many comments that my filter marked them all as spam. Regardless, I read through your comments, and before I continue, I need to point out a few things:

1) No matter how many times I may say it, I'll say it once more: the belief in an old universe came from secular ideas, not Christian. You may believe that science PROVES an old universe, but science does not prove either an old or a young universe, it only proves that we have a universe, that it had a beginning, and that it will have an end. Empirical science is true science.

2) Why are you using the Bible to argue against the Bible? This is a fallacy, and contradictory. You claim that the Bible is corrupted, yet you quote it as if you believed it was not. Either you believe it is corrupted, or you do not. If so, which parts are corrupted? It appears only the parts that agree with Islam. Regardless, the Bible IS NOT corrupted, it is the true Word of God.

Now, I will attempt to answer your questions, but I will be candid, I found much of it to be disjointed. 

1- Big bang Theory. On the contrary, I did use science in my article. If you seek more, see: http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers#/topic/astrophysics

You insist that the Biblical Young Creation contradicts science, yet I still have not seen how it contradicts EMPIRICAL science in any way.

Debate with a Priest (2) – About Creation Story, Old Universe doesn’t contradict with Creation Theory, Is Jesus the LORD? Is some of Bible corrupted?

Abdallah:

Dear,

I think you may need to check the below article, it explains Genesis story in different manner that fit much more with Science:

http://debatewithatheist.blogspot.com/2011/02/story-of-creation-3-earth-formation-in.html

Scientists will never accept the 7000 years period.

Regards,

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Abdallah,

Thank you for your input. To be candid, however, your statement is fallacious. You say, "it explains [the] Genesis story in [a] different manner that fit[s] much more with Science."

That's a fallacy. Science is only what is testable, repeatable, observable. The methods used for millions/billions of years are terribly unreliable at best, and it is all based on assumptions. Though I could get into the contradictory nature of citing both the Quran and the Bible as if they are describing the same, showing the many contradictions between the Qu'ran and the Bible and proving that no, the Bible has not changed over time, it is important to note that the Bible seems to postulate a 6015 year old universe, not 7000.

Trying to fit millions or billions of years into the Qu'ran or the Bible contradicts both works, and ignores the plethora of evidence for a young universe. Despite the alleged facts quoted in the article, I have heard of those before, and there are simple answers to those. For instance, it is public knowledge that both Evolutionists and Creationists disagree that the moon dust/rocks should be used for dating, since there are too many factors to consider.

Debate with a Priest (1) - Is Jesus the LORD or not?

Dears,

I was debating over emails with a Friend (Priest) that I would like to share it with you.

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Dear Abdallah

I do not find your explanation of Daniel 9. You did not point out the "missing."

Please explain the following verses. If Jesus is not part of the Godhead then what do they mean.

^{Col 2: 8}

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. ⁹For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. ¹⁰And you are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and power, 

If the complete fulness of Godhood was not in his body, what did this verse mean?

Philp 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: ⁶Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (But he left it)

If he did not leave equality with God for a lower position (SON) then wnat did he leave behind him according to this verse?

Q- The “True Prophet”, “False Prophet”, “False Prophets”, “Comforter”, “Spirit of Truth”, Who are they? And How to differentiate between them?

1-    The True Prophet:

Too many readers don’t notice that there is a real prophecy in the New Testament about a true prophet who will be coming, which shown in the following signs:

•   People who were meeting Jesus or John for the first time, they were asking if he is the Messiah or the Prophet?
• Jesus talked about the comforter, the Spirit of Truth as single person only.
• Jesus talked about the false prophets in plural that they are many and not only one.
• Jesus talked about them to distinguish them from the true prophet.

This means that there will be one True Prophet and many False Prophets.

Let’s check one by one:

1-    In the following verses: they show a debate among the people whether if he is the Christ or the Prophet? Means they were expecting two different persons: Christ and the Prophet.

Q- How to prove the "Valley of Baca" in Palms 84, means really the "Valley of Makkah"?

The wonderful song in Palms 84 says the following:

4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.

5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.

6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

7 They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.

٤ طُوبَى لِلسَّاكِنِينَ فِي بَيْتِكَ، أَبَدًا يُسَبِّحُونَكَ. سِلاَهْ.

٥ طُوبَى لأُنَاسٍ عِزُّهُمْ بِكَ. طُرُقُ بَيْتِكَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ.

٦ عَابِرِينَ فِي وَادِي الْبُكَاءِ، يُصَيِّرُونَهُ يَنْبُوعًا. أَيْضًا بِبَرَكَاتٍ يُغَطُّونَ مُورَةَ.

٧ يَذْهَبُونَ مِنْ قُوَّةٍ إِلَى قُوَّةٍ. يُرَوْنَ قُدَّامَ اللهِ فِي صِهْيَوْنَ.

But before decoding this prophecy, we have to note the following rules in such work:

-       We don’t prove idea then apply the prophecy on it, and this is the mistake that many others who tried to explain this prophecy, whether Muslims or Christians.

-       The prophecy may lead to an idea even it doesn’t refer to it from first sight.

-       To decode a prophecy, all words must fit not some of them, and each is like a digit in one password, so if one didn’t fit correctly then it was not explained correctly.

Now, let’s decode this prophecy from the beginning:

Q – Who is the one that was meant in Mosses prophecy by “Prophet like you”, Jesus or Muhammad (PBUT)?

The famous prophecy of Mosses says the following:

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. [Deuteronomy 18/15-18]

Q - What is the correct explanation of the 70 Weeks Prophecy? And who is the Most Holy?

This prophecy which named also as Daniel vision is one of the most mysterious prophecies in the Old Testament, and it created too much controversy among hundreds if not thousands of Jewish and Christian religious scholars around the world, so they can figure its real explanation.

The prophecy is mentioned in Book of Daniel, Chapter 9, 23:29:

²² And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

²³ At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured -upon the desolate.

Q - How did the Testimony of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) prove that Arius was right and the real follower of Jesus Christ?

A - First Council of Nicaea:

In the early centuries of Christianity there was nothing called “Jesus as Son of God” before the Roman Empire being converted to Christianity, but unfortunately they forced the priests to alter their believes from saying “Messenger of God” to be “Son of God”, similar to Romans ancient pagan religion.

The story is mentioned in the article of “First Council of Nicaea” from Wikipedia, where it mentions that following:

 [The council did not create the doctrine of the deity of Christ as is sometimes claimed but it did settle to some degree the debate within the early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ. This idea of the divinity of Christ along with the idea of Christ as a “messenger from the one God” (The Father) had long existed in various parts of the Roman empire. The divinity of Christ had also been widely endorsed by the Christian community in the otherwise pagan city of Rome.

Q – What are the top 10 reasons for why Jesus (PBUH) is not GOD (by Joshua Evans)?

Very nice and smart too ..