Abdallah:
Dear,
I think you may need to check the below article, it explains Genesis story in different manner that fit much more with Science:
I think you may need to check the below article, it explains Genesis story in different manner that fit much more with Science:
http://debatewithatheist.blogspot.com/2011/02/story-of-creation-3-earth-formation-in.html
Scientists will never accept the 7000 years period.
Regards,
Abdallah,
Thank you for your input. To be candid, however, your statement is fallacious. You say, "it explains [the] Genesis story in [a] different manner that fit[s] much more with Science."
That's a fallacy. Science is only what is testable, repeatable, observable. The methods used for millions/billions of years are terribly unreliable at best, and it is all based on assumptions. Though I could get into the contradictory nature of citing both the Quran and the Bible as if they are describing the same, showing the many contradictions between the Qu'ran and the Bible and proving that no, the Bible has not changed over time, it is important to note that the Bible seems to postulate a 6015 year old universe, not 7000.
Trying to fit millions or billions of years into the Qu'ran or the Bible contradicts both works, and ignores the plethora of evidence for a young universe. Despite the alleged facts quoted in the article, I have heard of those before, and there are simple answers to those. For instance, it is public knowledge that both Evolutionists and Creationists disagree that the moon dust/rocks should be used for dating, since there are too many factors to consider.
Despite the fact the Qu'ran claims a six day creation and elsewhere a eight day creation (I own a copy, I've examined it and tried to reconcile, I could not), along with other issues in the text, the article, as aforementioned, ignores the myriad of young earth evidence.
If one can eliminate all evidence for a Young Creation, then perhaps an old creation could be considered. But an old creation contradicts both the Bible and the Qu'ran.
answersingenesis.org, icr.org, drdino.com, creation.com
God bless,
PS - If I came off in a negative sense, that was not the intention, I was merely making a few points.
Also, you say that Scientists will never accept a young creation. I know several scientists who have. Most secular scientists may not, but there are many scientists who have, and will continue to do so. Not all are necessarily Christian, either.
--------------
Abdallah Said:
Dear,
I didn’t receive a notification about your reply, but today I passed by your site and see that you comment on my article, so please allow to me to explain the following:
It’s clear in Quran, that Youm “Day” does NOT mean an Earth day and it’s whether a speed or time or even a distance all measured by “Day”, and the following verses show that clearly:
A- Speed of spirit and Angels:
He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon. [32:5]
B- Distance between Universes:
(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years. [70:4]
C- Time Duration of Creation, which all mention the number of 6 days only:
Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! [7:54]
Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things. There is no intercessor (with Him) save after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Oh, will ye not remind? [10:3]
And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. Yet if thou (O Muhammad) sayest: Lo! ye will be raised again after death! those who disbelieve will surely say: This is naught but mere magic. [11:7]
Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six Days, then He mounted the Throne. The Beneficent! Ask anyone informed concerning Him! [25:95]
Allah it is Who created the heavens and the earth, and that which is between them, in six Days. Then He mounted the Throne. Ye have not, beside Him, a protecting friend or mediator. Will ye not then remember? [32:4]
And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. [50:38]
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do. [57:4]
About the 8 days mentioned in Quran,
It’s different story and they were real 8 “Earth” days of Sand storm on A’ad people till they and their city were all covered, and this because they refused the call of their prophet, ALLAH says:
Which He imposed on them for seven long nights and eight long days so that thou mightest have seen men lying overthrown, as they were hollow trunks of palm-trees. [69:7]
About Quran and Bible science contradictions, I am really sure that you may know that Bible is not all Word of God and it’s a collection of sacred scriptures, poems, stories, history, messages, etc…
And it was really changed during history due to losing the original copies many times during wars between Jews and Persians, Jews and Romans, and also because of the translation between different languages..
In other hand, Quran is still reserved as it is, in the same original language that it was revealed to prophet Muhammad (PBUH)..
Because of this, during the interpretation of Quran, we took any of the Synonyms that fit that meaning and match between science and the Quranic verse explanation.
But for Bible, you took the common meaning of the word, such as:
- Water could be Fluid, could be Sea, could be ocean or rain, as common between all this water, or fluidity..
- Similar to firmament it could be separator or crust as it’s referring to Earth creation..
You can do a simple exercise on Google translator or other on-line or manual dictionary, and try to put a basic word like “Water” or “Air” or whatever, and translate it from English to French to German then to English again, and took one of the meanings randomly each time then translate it to another language, you will be astonished that you will never get the original word ever.
Similarly could happen to Bible, where original word could be written in Hebrew, then translated to Aramaic, then to Greek, or Latin then to old English, so how do you think that you may get the original word ever, it’s mostly impossible..
About the day explanation in Quran and Bible,
You know and you may believe too, the GOD is the resource of all sciences and he is the greatest Scientist ever and he is the All-knower..
Therefore, there mustn’t be any contradiction between Science and his holy book, unless we are not understanding his words correctly..
About the days equal to billions of years; if Science says that our universe is almost 14 billion years, and in our religious resources, we know that we crossed slightly the 7 Universal days, then simply means that the day he mentioned in Quran or Bible is meant to be 14 / 7 = 2 billion year for each day ..
About religious contradiction between Bible and Quran, we don’t believe that such contradiction in God’s Original word, but by corruption of God’s word that happened on bible manually coping during the continuous conflict around Jesus Nature in the first centuries of Christianity and I think such debate still exist till now, and you know more than me that you have thousands of original copies of Bible that never match each others, surely you will find many errors or discrepancies between them all.
Regards,
-------------------------
Thank you for your long replies. Allowed me to review the copy I own the of the Qu'ran. However, a few things. First off, as aforementioned, the "evidence" used to date the Universe at 13.7 billion years and the Earth at 4.5 billion is fallacious at best. The methods are unreliable. Did you get the chance to read any of the sites I posted? There is also much evidence (contrary to secular postulations) for a Young Universe. If indeed the universe is young, what then does that indicate?
Having reviewed the passages you pointed out, I've still drawn the same conclusion: many point out in Psalms and in a letter of Peter that "a day with the Lord is like a thousand years." That's a comparative sentence, not an actual scientific fact. It's using -like, and the passage in Psalms uses the comparative -as. Point being, in the Qu'ran, I have not found a statement where it specifically says, "I created over thousands of years." If that was the case, and he knew the difference between thousands of years and a day, why then did not not put thousands of years each time the six days were mentioned?
That last objection I have heard time and time again. Essentially, "The Bible has changed over time." It hasn't. I wrote an entry on that not too long ago. You can find that here: http://thetruth-blog.blogspot.com/2010/11/is-bible-reliable-has-it-been-altered.html
This may also be of help in that area: http://www.icr.org/scripture/ you can also try evidence4faith.com
Overall, point is, Scripture hasn't changed. Yes, we have over 24,000 copies of the new Testament within a short time frame of their original writing. Why is that significant? Compared to Homer's works, we only have 7 copies. See entry I mentioned for further details, no use repeating what has already been written.
Simply because one copy does not match the other does not make it corrupted. Was the original inspired? Yes, and I believe we agree on that. However, even if every single copy made only one error, you can still take all of the copies (a significant amount compared to other writings, mind you) and using comparative literature, determine what the original was by examining all copies as a whole. This method is used for many other ancient works, and scholars seem to have no issue using it.
In regard to Islam. I respect that you believe much of what is found in the Bible. Until early last year when I began to examine the beliefs of Muslims, I hadn't known much about it. It surprised me that Adam and Eve, creation, Noah, Abraham, the birth of Jesus, etc. However, then I began to see some of the major differences.
For one, Islam does not offer a solution to the sin problem. Even after good works abound, there is still no assurance of salvation, just a possibility. According to the Qu'ran, the Bible is to be used as a source as well, for Muslims. However, that the Bible changed over time is a tradition that developed, it is not in the Qu'ran.
Point being, if you get the chance, please read over Psalm 14:1-3; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:9-18; Exodus 15:11; 1 Samuel 2:2; Joshua 24:19; Psalm 93:5; Deuteronomy 25:16; Proverbs 6:16-19; Romans 10:9-10, and 1st John 1:9. Address a prayer to God, and ask him to "open [your] eyes to the wonders of [His] law." We agree, I believe, that the Bible ought to be read regardless of the stance taken. Please take a look at those passages.
Thanks again for your reply, Abdallah. May God bless you.
----------------
Abdallah Said:
Dear,
It’s nice to debate with someone who’s educated and understanding like you, I am really enjoying, but still I am not getting notification for your replies and this what is delaying my replies.
About the dating of Earth of 4.5 bn and universe 13.7 bn,
I never said that in my post, please if you can check it again, the universe had already crossed 14 billion years, actually we are now in the year of 14,000,001,379 since the starting of Creation !!
And if you notice that Earth creation has started in the first 2 billion years where the crust has been formed.
And I strongly oppose the idea of having the Earth of 4.5 billions only, which is totally incorrect and I am sure that aging method used is not accurate.
About Young Universe
If you meant 7000 years only, I think you feel and your mind believe as I believe too, that it’s impossible to create all this in such short period, otherwise a mountain of 7000 meters height will raise 1 meter each year minimum !!
Also, it’s illogical to create the universe so fast, then God will mostly do it all in less than 1 second, but GOD wants us really to discover it by science and by his laws (physics, chemical and biological laws) otherwise we won’t learn anything, and we must defend such false argument just to match it with the 7000 years statements
I already wrote a section about the explanation of 7000 years, that it doesn’t mean literally our 7000 Earth years and using 14 billion number in bible or Quran it was impossible and illogical since people have 1000 as their maximum number that times, they will reject it completely as they never experience such huge number ever in their daily life..
Also, we are talking about universe creation when Earth and Sun were to be created and start to rotate around Sun, so how can you measure something that starts before Earth year, knowing that Earth cycle was not a one year long in the beginning, it was longer and was reduced till 365 days of 24 hours each
About Bible corruption,
Answering your question, if each copy has one error only, then we will have 24,000 errors in the 24,000 original copies, if this doesn’t mean corruption then what we call it !!
I’ll give you just a sample, the following verses are the only 4 verses in all 4 Gospels where the word “Begotten Son” was mentioned , please check them in the new RSV bible, the word “Begotten” was omitted because it was not authentic and was not mentioned in the original copies, and you may know what word “begotten” is important in Christianity:
John 1:14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
RVS: [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
RVS: [18] No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
RVS: [16] For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
RVS: [18] He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
My friend, Quran is the final revelation from God to humanity through his prophet Muhammad (PBUH) similar to what was revealed to prophets before him, ALLAH says in Quran:
Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms; [4:163]
And since God is the one who revealed Quran, so he is the most knowing about those who corrupted his previous books and he said the following on the Quran as warning for those who committed such crime:
Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby [2:79]
About Islam doesn’t have a solution for SIN !!
If you meant Adam’s sin?
Then, there is nothing called Adam’s sin that inherited to any of his children, SINs can’t be transferred from someone to other, similarly as Crimes, only who committed must be trailed or asked for his action..
If you meant someone sins? YES, in Islam there is a solution, God says:
“O son of Adam, if you asked and wished from me, I’ll forgive you what you’ve done and I won’t care..
O Son of Adam, if your sins reached height of the Sky, then you asked me for forgiveness, I’ll forgive you..
O Son of Adam, if you brought Sins of all Earth bags, and you met me (after death) and you don’t take partner with me (as god), I will give you them all of forgiveness”.
قال الله تعالى : يا ابن آدم إنك ما دعوتني ورجوتني غفرت لك على ما كان منك ، ولا أبالي ، يا ابن آدم لو بلغت ذنوبك عنان السماء ثم استغفرتني غفرت لك ، يا ابن آدم لو أتيتني بقراب الأرض خطايا ، ثم لقيتني لا تشرك بي شيئا لأتيتك بقرابها مغفرة
About possibility?
Yes, if you meant as the entry of Heaven in the hereafter, because ALLAH is the only one who owns Heaven and hell, and no one can guarantee this as it’s in God’s hands only..
About Psalms prayers,
If you like to read psalms songs, please read the following explanation about the Psalms 84 that talk about Valley of Makkah and compliment Muslims prayers, on the following:
Post titled:
Q- How to prove the "Valley of Baca" in Psalms 84, means really the "Valley of Makkah"?
About reading the prayers and citations that you listed:
Honestly, I didn’t read them all but honestly saying, really what we have in Quran is much beautiful and Rich than most of what is mentioned, I wish if you have the chance to read the following:
Chapter 2: Al-Baqra: The Cow, which mostly reply on Jews and describe their stubborn against God’s messages and killing their prophets.
Chapter 3 of Al- Emran, The Family of Mary, Jesus Mothers, and it’s mostly to reply on Christians beliefs.
Chapter 5: Al-Maaeda, the last supper table that was asked by Jesus from God and was descended from heaven, also it’s mostly to reply on Christians beliefs..
Chapter 19 of Marry, and it describes the birth of Jesus, and how the old Christians fought a lot about his birth nature, and how they changed their religion from God.
You can read it on the following link in English:
About the prayer.
I want to tell you about a very simple pray that I wish if you can read it once alone sincerely from your heart:
“O who created the whole universe and who created me…
I ask you alone without any partner..
Guide me to the right path…
And you is the Lord, the most merciful..
Amen”
Note, I will check the other sites that you sent me soon.
Regards,
------------------------------
Abdallah,
"I never said that in my post, please if you can check it again, the universe had already crossed 14 billion years, actually we are now in the year of 14,000,001,379 since the starting of Creation !! And if you notice that Earth creation has started in the first 2 billion years where the crust has been formed. And I strongly oppose the idea of having the Earth of 4.5 billions only, which is totally incorrect and I am sure that aging method used is not accurate."
– I apologize if I misunderstand, but you're using fallacious scientific methods... to argue against fallacious scientific methods. You state that the use incorrect dating methods, yet those same methods have led you to that conclusion. I do not recognize a old universe, and find that the evidence supports a young universe.
"If you meant 7000 years only, I think you feel and your mind believe as I believe too, that it’s impossible to create all this in such short period, otherwise a mountain of 7000 meters height will raise 1 meter each year minimum!! Also, it’s illogical to create the universe so fast, then God will mostly do it all in less than 1 second, but GOD wants us really to discover it by science and by his laws (physics, chemical and biological laws) otherwise we won’t learn anything, and we must defend such false argument just to match it with the 7000 years statements..."
- Neither Christian nor Muslim should ever make the statement that something is impossible for God. If God wanted to create in six, literal days, He could create in six, literal days, and rest on the seventh. Was Jonah in the whale for 3 billion years, or three days? Empirical science does not tell us the age of the universe. That is how we interpret the evidence - some with an old universe, others with a young.
And again, I believe the universe is only about 6014 years old, not 7000.
"Answering your question, if each copy has one error only, then we will have 24,000 errors in the 24,000 original copies, if this doesn’t mean corruption then what we call it !!"
We call it comparative literature, it's a technique used for many forms of ancient writing. The Greeks were meticulous in their copies, and if an error was made, they would scrap it and start all over again. The priests were also very careful. I did not say every single copy had an error, I was giving a scenario and placing the copies into that context.
Did Muhammad ever perform any miracles to prove that he was truly God's prophet? Recall what God conveyed in Deuteronomy 13 and 18 about the requirements for prophets.
"Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby [2:79]"
- Regardless, this still does not explicitly state that the Old and New Testament are corrupt. That tradition came after Muhammad.
"If you meant Adam’s sin? Then, there is nothing called Adam’s sin that inherited to any of his children, SINs can’t be transferred from someone to other, similarly as Crimes, only who committed must be trailed or asked for his action.."
I meant the sins of each individual person. If I recall correctly, Muslims believe in the Ten Commandments. Each of has transgressed God's Law, regardless of their belief, and we are without excuse, the law is written on our heart. Having broken God's law, this necessitates a Savior, Jesus Christ. (See http://thetruth-blog.blogspot.com/2010/09/ten-commandments-have-we-followed-them.html about the 10 Commandments)
"Yes, if you meant as the entry of Heaven in the hereafter, because ALLAH is the only one who owns Heaven and hell, and no one can guarantee this as it’s in God’s hands only..."
God is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, the sea and all that is in them. (Exodus 20:11) God wants us to have assurance of salvation, and mere works or good deeds cannot save us.
As for the chapters on Jesus, I have already read those. Regarding that prayer, I appreciate it, sir, but I cannot discredit Jesus as Lord. Romans 10:9 conveys, "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and if you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." 1st John 1:0 says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
This may come off as an odd request. If you have never read the New Testament from Matthew-Revelation before, perhaps now is the time to do so. You believe it is corrupted, I believe historical evidence disallows for this possibility. Regarding the different translations, that is all they are: translations. Biblical scholars are constantly studying the Greek and Hebrew texts, searching the Scriptures. Not every Bible is a good translation, and this is true for the Qu'ran as well. I have an English copy of the Qu'ran and when I compare it to a different copy, it is different in many ways. That's merely the fault of the translation.
The Bible doesn't change over time, the translation does.
The reason that certain Bibles changed "Begotten Son" to "one and only Son" is because it was a better translation of the world.
Jesus claimed to be God (for example, John 10:30, 13:13, etc), and proved it by His resurrection.
Regardless of the arguments, the only explanation that agrees with all of the evidence surrounding the empty tomb is that Jesus Christ, God the Son, the Messiah, rose from the dead on the third day, fulfilling the Scriptures, and appeared to many over a period of 40 days before ascending into Heaven.
If nothing else, I request that you read the book of John. Thank you for your time, sir. God bless you.
-------------------
Abdallah Said:
Dear,
Hope you are not bored from our conversation, I ask O mighty God that to be fruitful and useful for both of us, I will try to reply in short:
1- I didn’t use fallacies in my estimation, if our religious resources shows that we crossed the 7th day, and Science shows that big bang happened almost 14 billion years ago, why is it so difficult to understand that each Day is 14/7 = 2 billion years..
All Christian scholars explain that each day of the 6 days which is called “Yaoum” in Arabic and Hebrew means period of time, and you estimate it as 1000 years, so why it’s correct to estimate it as 1000 years and not to estimate that each year by 2 million of actual years !! so you will have each day 2 billion years.
2- I didn’t mean “impossible” on God (God forbidden and ask for his forgiveness), I meant scientifically otherwise we’ll see the mountains raising in front of our eyes, GOD creates the elements and set the laws and say: “To be, then it is”, but he wants to teach us all this science and knowledge, by observing and analyzing all this changes and to figure the perfect laws that he stated in this universe..
ALLAH created Heaven and Hell in day 7th in less time than Earth, and both of them are most sophisticated and in complete different universal laws, whether in Heaven which will be the best ever that we can imagine, and in Hell that it will be the worst that we can ever imagine.
If you still convinced by young creation although it’s against science and logic, and you refuse to accept the more practical answer that will solve a lot of scientific problems and correct many theories depending on correct explanation of Bible and Quran, then it’s your choice, I can’t convince you more..
About the conditions for a new prophet, they are apply on prophet Muhammad including the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18, [The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken]
I wish that you can read the explanation of these prophecies on the following, PLEASE PLEASE Read them, it’s very important:
The difference in translations of Quran and Bible, it’s true, but the most essential difference that Original copy of the Quran by its original language is still exist in billions of copies all over the world, and read billions and billions of times every day by the muslims, but Bible has no original !!
About “That tradition came after Muhammad”, this is the best statement in all discussion, it’s totally TRUE, but just ask yourself why??
For one reason, because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was mentioned in these copies and they have to change and burn all old copies to remove his name, otherwise all Christians will convert to Islam !!
ALLAH is the Almighty God, and he is the Creator of Earth and Heavens, and this what I am inviting you to worship him, please check the following comparison that proves to you that:
ALLAH is GOD the Creator, Not Jesus, NOT Buddha, NOT Krishna, on:
About the resurrection of Jesus after his crucifixion, PLEASE read the following article and after that please answer if he was really dead or not dead:
Q- Was Jesus Really Crucified?
About John 10:13, the story is really corrupted and if you want read it on Baranaba Gospel which is the most authentic Bible for Jesus Christ, the chapter 10 in John is actually from chapter number 156 to chapter #: 206 if you want to read the real story..
If you don’t want to read all this, JUST please read about the Day of Judgment and Hell description from chapters 53 to 60, on Baranabas gospel, believe me it will be different experience for you..
If you don’t have it, please download it for free from the following site:
Wish you good luck and I was happy to chat to you.
Abdallah,
Note, I will post our debate on my blog too.
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