Tuesday, January 10, 2012

Debate with a Priest (9) – NO you are wrong, God will not kill himself for us !!

Abdallah Reply:

Dear My Friend,

Sorry for my very late reply, but I was really busy in finishing my research on Quran miracles, that it took many months to work on (you can check in on my blog: A Debate with an Atheist).

I returned back to our letters and read them all again and I will try to answer on some questions that I didn’t answer yet, but before that I will comment on some of your replies, and I will try to be short as much as I can, (while reviewing my reply, I think I didn’t succeed in making it short again!!):

- Islam is superior on all religions, yes it’s true, it’s not a claim and it’s already proven, search in whole universe, do you see a religion that calls for worshiping God only without any partner, to worship a God that is not similar to anything or any creation on Earth, or never exist or dwelled on Earth !! Except Islam..

Please check my article: Why Islam is different? On:

- No comparison to Muslim prayers that are billions of times per day and fasting a complete month per year with any other religion and the most important they all are dedicated to real GOD (the only creator of this universe), knowing that only the prayers to God will be accepted and all others will be vanished whatever they were from, ALLAH says: 

وقدمنا الى ما عملوا من عمل فجعلناه هباء منثورا

And We shall turn to whatever deeds they (disbelievers, polytheists, sinners) did, and We shall make such deeds as scattered floating particles of dust. (25:23)

- When prophet Muhammad told about John the Baptist, this doesn’t mean that he heard that from someone human, definitely Not..

It’s a revelation from God, all what is told and informed by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) on his tongue is revealed to him from God, it’s the same mentioned in Torah about the coming prophet (Muhammad):

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." [Deuteronomy 18:18]

And the same mentioned in the Quran about the Prophet himself:

By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes). (1) Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred. (2) Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. (3) It is only a Revelation revealed. (4) He has been taught (this Qur'ân) by one mighty in power [Jibril (Gabriel)] (53:5)

- Lord means God, which I don’t agree with you on this, and I will paste below its meaning from encyclopedia, it’s even used in England as title for some honored persons.

Lord  (lôrd) n.
1. A man of high rank in a feudal society or in one that retains feudal forms and institutions, especially:
a. A king.
b. A territorial magnate.
c. The proprietor of a manor.
2. Lords The House of Lords.
3. Abbr. Ld. Chiefly British The general masculine title of nobility and other rank:
a. Used as a form of address for a marquis, an earl, or a viscount.
b. Used as the usual style for a baron.
c. Used as a courtesy title for a younger son of a duke or marquis.
d. Used as a title for certain high officials and dignitaries: Lord Chamberlain; the Lord Mayor of London.
e. Used as a title for a bishop.
4. Lord
a. God.
b. Christianity Jesus.
a. A man of renowned power or authority.
b. A man who has mastery in a given field or activity.
c. Archaic The male head of a household.
d. Archaic A husband.

It’s also used in Quran for meaning the master of a slave (also in Bible, many times by Jesus himself too), so not all “Lord” means God !!

And as muslins, we don’t agree on the concept of using mediators between us and God, and this is the main different between Islam as religion and all other religions: when we call; we call God directly, as he created us and bestowed us every day and every time, then why we need to call someone else who neither can hear us nor can help us, ALLAH says:

وقال ربكم ادعوني استجب لكم ان الذين يستكبرون عن عبادتي سيدخلون جهنم داخرين

And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islâmic Monotheism)] (and ask Me for anything) I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me, and do not believe in My Oneness, (Islâmic Monotheism)] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!" (40:60)

الله الذي خلقكم ثم رزقكم ثم يميتكم ثم يحييكم هل من شركائكم من يفعل من ذلكم من شيء سبحانه وتعالى عما يشركون

Allâh is He Who created you, then provided food for you, then will cause you to die, then (again) He will give you life (on the Day of Resurrection). Is there any of your (so called) partners (of Allâh) that do anything of that? Glory is to Him! And Exalted is He above all that (evil) they associate (with Him). (30:40)

- You said: “if the Qu’ran was truly written by God, why did he misrepresent Christianity? We do not worship Mary, Catholics do, which already holds separate beliefs than mainstream Christianity. There is no need to continue to assume I worship Mary or believe she is a mediator – I do not.”

If catholic consider Mary as mediator and they worship her, then what’s mentioned in Quran is totally true, since majority of Christians are Catholic (according to stats. Catholic represents 65% of total Christians in World), and technically I never saw a Christian except they call Mary for help anytime they need to, (although neither her nor Jesus will hear their prayers ever).

Also, Quran is mentioning the concept and it’s book of God, you can’t tailor his words to your needs, it will not take all Christians groups and reply on each of their concepts one by one, then it won’t be a book of religion for muslims but book of religion comparison, knowing that we read Quran day and night and in our prayers, so don’t except that it must reply on each of your religious differences one by one.. 

- You said: “Matthew, Mark and Luke were written between 40-64 AD, with John having been written later. The letters of Paul were written before 64 AD, ... Jude’s letter was written ca.70-80 AD, John’s letters (including Revelation) were written prior to 96 AD, and James letter was written in the 50’s/60’s AD. All of the New Testament was written prior to 100 AD.

Then when you talked about Quran, you said the following:

Which I do not accept due to its unreliability (it was compiled by Zaid bin Thabit, under the guidance of Muhammad’s father-in-law, Abu-Bekr. Then in 650 AD, a group of Arab scholars produced a unified version and destroyed all variant copies to preserve the unity of the Koran. The Bible was unified from the time of its writings – the Koran had to be unified through the editing of man. Also, why would there need to be an “official” or “unified” version if all versions agreed?”

Really very strange conclusion, I can’t understand how your mind was able to compare both things and find that Bible is more reliable and authentic than Quran;

You confess that it’s wrote by people who never saw Jesus himself or lived at his time, or listened from him directly and in time span of 70-100 years after Jesus !!

And Quran was complied only of sheets that were written at Prophet Muhammad time (sheets of leathers, or bones and wood pieces) under his direct supervision, and were reserved in one place 1 year only after prophet death by Zaid Ibn Thabet, his own companion and who memorized the whole Quran during prophet time and was his own writer, and it was not only him but hundreds of Prophet’s followers were memorizing the Quran too.

The other versions were written on paper few years later because paper was entered in Arabia from other empires, and that’s all !! There is nothing about other versions, it’s only one version but written on paper.

I will illustrate it to you in next chart, maybe it will be easier for you to differentiate between both the Quran and Bible, just to check which will “blow the competition out of water” this time:

As you see:

Quran was written during prophet time by his companions under his provision and audit (dictated to them), and collected one year after his death.

Bible was never written during Jesus times (except by his writer Baranaba), never written by his companions or people lived during his time or met him, the first completed version is written 350 years later !!

The Quran is still in its own language since 1430 years purely reserved with the same version (edition). There are no multi-versions that they chose among them, it’s only the bones, woods and leathers that were replaced by paper, and they were destroyed because they are going to ruin anyway, and usually when we have an old copy of Quran we usually burn it or destroy it, and not throw it as normal book, (knowing that Quran is the first book ever in Arabic).

The holy Bible is in many translated versions which keep changing, and last updated one is on 2011, means 1978 years after Jesus ascending to heaven..

- if you believe that the Bible has been corrupted, I must ask why, and what evidence do we have that it is corrupted? Is it because the Bible teaches that Jesus is divine, it teaches that Jesus died on the cross and rose again, and because this disagrees with the Qu’ran, it must be corrupt? If not, what is the reasoning behind this?

Since speaking about Jesus died on cross, and as example: I will paste some of the contradictions about Jesus Crucifixion in the bible, quoted from the following article: http://atheism.about.com/od/gospelcontradictions/p/Crucifixion.htm

1- Who Carries Jesus’ Cross?

In the Passion narratives, did Jesus carry his own cross or not?
Mark 15:21, Matthew 27:32, Luke 23:26 - Jesus gets help from Simon of Cyrene
John 19:17 - Jesus carries his own cross the whole way

2- Inscription on Jesus’ Cross:

When crucified, Jesus’ cross had an inscription — but what did it say?
Mark 15:26 - The inscription: “The King of the Jews.”
Matthew 27:37 - The inscription: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
Luke 23:38 - The inscription: “This is the King of the Jews.”
John 19:19 - The inscription: “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.”

3- Jesus and the Thieves:

Some gospels say Jesus was crucified with two thieves, though the Romans never crucified thieves.
Mark - The two thieves are mentioned, but there is no conversation
Matthew 27:44 - The two thieves taunt Jesus
Luke 23:39-42 - One thief taunts Jesus and is criticized by the other. Jesus promises the 2nd thief that they would be in Paradise that day, though John and Acts say he did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection
John - The two men aren’t described as thieves

4- Does Jesus Drink Wine or Vinegar?:

Jesus is given something to drink while he is on the cross, but what?
Mark 15:23 - Jesus is given wine mixed with myrrh, but he doesn’t drink
Matthew 27:48, Luke 23:36 - Jesus is given vinegar, but he doesn’t drink
John 19:29-30 - Jesus is given vinegar and he drinks

5- Jesus and the Centurion:

Romans supposedly witnessed Jesus’ crucifixion, but what did they think?
Mark 15:39 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was the son of God!”
Matthew 27:54 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this was the son of God.”
Luke 23:47 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was innocent.”
John - No centurions say anything

6- Women Watch the Crucifixion:

The gospels describe several women as having followed Jesus around, but what did they do when Jesus was crucified?
Mark 15:40, Matthew 27:55, Luke 23:49 - Several women watch Jesus from afar
John 19:25-26 - Several women are close enough that Jesus could talk to his mother, contrary to Roman practices

7- When Was Jesus Crucified?:

The crucifixion of Jesus is the central event of the Passion narrative, but the narratives don’t agree on when the crucifixion occurred.
Mark 15:25 - Jesus was crucified on the “third hour.”
John 19:14-15 - Jesus was crucified on the “sixth hour.”
Matthew, Luke - It’s not stated when the crucifixion starts, but the “sixth hour” occurs during the crucifixion

8- Jesus’ Last Words:

Jesus’ last words before dying are important, but no one seems to have written then down.
Mark 15:34-37, Matthew 27:46-50 - Jesus says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (but they use different Greek words for “God” — Matthew uses “Eli” and Mark uses “Eloi”)
Luke 23:46 - Jesus says: “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
John 19:30 - Jesus says: “It is finished.”

9- Earthquake after the Resurrection:

Was there an earthquake when Jesus died?
Matthew 27:51-53 - At the moment Jesus dies, a massive earth quake strikes and opens tombs where dead people rise again
Mark, Luke, John - No earthquake is mentioned. No earthquake and no massive influx of formerly dead people is mentioned in any historical records, which is strange given how monumental such an event would be.

And, if you please can read the following article about Jesus Crucifixion on my blog: “Was Jesus really crucified?”, you may discover scientifically that even if he was put on cross, actually he never died,:

All this shows that if Bible had one correct original version, then such contradictions might not exist from the beginning, but because the original is lost, and this was only a sample..

The Corruption is also in Old Testament, as can you imagine that a Book of God mentions the following:
- A prophet that can sleep with his daughters and make them pregnant !! [Genesis 19:30]
- A Prophet’s son rapes his sister, and the prophet didn’t do anything. 2Samuel [13]
- A prophet lies to his father and act as his brother instead.. [Genesis 27:19]
- A prophet sleeps with his daughter of law and has 2 children from her. [Genesis 38:16]
- A prophet sleeps with his officer’s wife and sends him to the battle to be killed so that he took his wife for himself. 2Samuel [11]

All these are not from God’s words for sure, not only contradicts with Quran words, because ALLAH had purified all his prophets and described them as they are the most pious people, but they contradict with common sense too !!

- During His trial before the Jewish leaders, the High Priest demanded of Jesus, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matthew 26:63). “’Yes, it is as you say,’ Jesus replied. ‘But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Matthew 26:64).

This also one of the clearest contradictions in Bible that you mention by yourself:

They asked Jesus if he is “Son of God”? He answered: “yes, it’s as you say, Son of man !!”

As asking someone: are you son of Mike? He answers: Yes, son of John !!

But, do you know from where all these contradictions came from?

Because of the distortion that happen after First Council of Nicaea, the order was given by the Roman Empire Authority to destroy all original copies of the Gospels and keep those who agree that Jesus is Son of God (or change them to), and because of that many of Christian scholars worked on changing all the words of “Son of Miriam” and “Son of Woman” then to “Son of Man” or “Son of God”..

But they didn’t do it perfectly, whether intentionally because some of them might still believe that Jesus was only a prophet and left such discrepancies so who came later will notice that too. And because of that the oldest complete copy of the Bible dated 350 AD only and all previous were destroyed.

– What is the Law of Sharia’a, and you mentioned Jesus coming back? Before or after the Madhi? If you don’t mind my asking.

Sharia’a: is collection of basic laws taken from Islamic main resources: Quran and Hadith, that have 5 aims:

- Protecting the brain: because of that liquor is forbidden in Islam.
- Protecting the soul (body): because of that suicide is forbidden in Islam, not to eat anything (pork), or cutting own body, etc...
- Protecting the money: because of that stealing is forbidden.
- Protecting the religion: because of that not to change from Islam, otherwise you will go to hell.
- Protecting the offspring: because of that adultery is forbidden.

Therefore, any law under Sahri’a must agree with one or more of these aims.

About Jesus return, yes he will come during Mahdi times, but nobody knows when exactly, ALLAH knows only !!

Regarding your question: what evidence that Bible is corrupted while Quran is not?

After explaining all the above, I think you know why we consider it corrupted or distorted, but I will summarize it to you in the following points:

Bible: has no original version available, Quran is available, so we can return to it any time is needed.

Bible: oldest complete copy is 350 AD after Jesus, Quran: oldest copy is 1 year after prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Bible: thousands of versions and Editions, with thousands of discrepancies..
Quran: the same version in Arabic anywhere..

Bible: Countless of contradictions in Bible..
Quran: ZERO, and any thought to be a contradiction, it appears later that it’s one of Quran miracles…

Bible: New versions appear from time to time, recently the 2011 version..
Quran: no versions other that original copy in Arabic..

Bible: stories that are not acceptable ever in religion, or common sense.
Quran: it guides only to what is good for human life.

Bible: there is nothing that it’s from God, or will be reserved by God.
Quran: states clearly that is reserved by God himself, to keep it till last days on Earth, just before the Hour of the Day of Judgment comes..

Bible: never says that it will be the last revelation from God, but it predicts that another helper will come from God (John: 16).
Quran: states clearly that it’s the last one revealed to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and it’s the last one given to humanity till the end of life.

Because of that, any book that says it came from God or an old revelation discovered in a mountain (similar to Mormon book) it will be useless as Quran is the dominated book and the last one to humanity.

وانزلنا اليك الكتاب بالحق مصدقا لما بين يديه من الكتاب ومهيمنا عليه فاحكم بينهم بما انزل الله ولا تتبع اهواءهم عما جاءك من الحق لكل جعلنا منكم شرعة ومنهاجا ولو شاء الله لجعلكم امة واحدة ولكن ليبلوكم في ما اتاكم فاستبقوا الخيرات الى الله مرجعكم جميعا فينبئكم بما كنتم فيه تختلفون

And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge among them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ (5:48)


In Ezekiel 36:27, God calls Him "my Spirit," as well as in Joel 2:28, and Haggai 2:5. The Holy Spirit is mentioned and appears several other times within the Old Testament, too numerous to mention here. Romans 8:9 also calls Him the "Spirit of Christ," making Him equal to both the Father and the Son.  

Mentioning that Holy Spirit is mentioned as my Spirit, or his spirit, or Spirit of God, doesn’t prove that he is God like ALLAH the God, آo, because it’s the same mentioned in Quran in many verses, but we Muslims never consider him as God, such verses like:

ولقد اتينا موسى الكتاب وقفينا من بعده بالرسل واتينا عيسى ابن مريم البينات وايدناه بروح القدس افكلما جاءكم رسول بما لا تهوى انفسكم استكبرتم ففريقا كذبتم وفريقا تقتلون

And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay? [2:87]

يا اهل الكتاب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله الا الحق انما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله وكلمته القاها الى مريم وروح منه فامنوا بالله ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلاثة انتهوا خيرا لكم انما الله اله واحد سبحانه ان يكون له ولد له ما في السماوات وما في الارض وكفى بالله وكيلا

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. [4:171]

يا بني اذهبوا فتحسسوا من يوسف واخيه ولا تياسوا من روح الله انه لا يياس من روح الله الا القوم الكافرون

Go, O my sons, and ascertain concerning Joseph and his brother, and despair not of the Spirit of Allah. Lo! none despaireth of the Spirit of Allah save disbelieving folk. [12:87]

فاذا سويته ونفخت فيه من روحي فقعوا له ساجدين

So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him. [15:29]

ينزل الملائكة بالروح من امره على من يشاء من عباده ان انذروا انه لا اله الا انا فاتقون

He sendeth down the angels with the Spirit of His command unto whom He will of His bondmen, (saying): Warn mankind that there is no Allah save Me, so keep your duty unto Me. [16:2]

And "Spirit of God", or "Holy Spirit" or "Spirit of his command”, if any is meant to Angel Gabriel that this doesn’t not mean ever that he is God, he is a messenger from God who carries the commands and orders from God to his messengers, and of course doesn’t dwell in any of the humans and not in the Christians for sure !!

But what is dwelled in the non-believers are the bad spirits (devils, demons) who divert them from worshiping God, ALLAH clearly says that in Quran:

ولا تاكلوا مما لم يذكر اسم الله عليه وانه لفسق وان الشياطين ليوحون الى اوليائهم ليجادلوكم وان اطعتموهم انكم لمشركون

And eat not of that whereon Allah's name hath not been mentioned, for lo! it is abomination. Lo! the devils do inspire their minions to dispute with you. But if ye obey them, ye will be in truth idolaters. [6:121]

يا بني ادم لا يفتننكم الشيطان كما اخرج ابويكم من الجنة ينزع عنهما لباسهما ليريهما سواتهما انه يراكم هو وقبيله من حيث لا ترونهم انا جعلنا الشياطين اولياء للذين لا يؤمنون

O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not. [7:27]

فريقا هدى وفريقا حق عليهم الضلالة انهم اتخذوا الشياطين اولياء من دون الله ويحسبون انهم مهتدون

A party hath He led aright, while error hath just hold over (another) party, for lo! they choose the devils for protecting supporters instead of Allah and deem that they are rightly guided. [7:30]

الم تر انا ارسلنا الشياطين على الكافرين تؤزهم ازا

Seest thou not that We have set the devils on the disbelievers to confound them with confusion? [19:83]

And I remember, I was debating with one of the Christians, he told me frankly that he feel God talking in his head, and even he hears his cheers to him when he fight Islam, I told him believe me you are hearing the voice of the devil in your heard, and the proof that if you say the following you will never hear him again for a while:

I seek refuge with ALLAH, the most knower, the most hearer, from Satan the accursed
He didn’t reply back to me again..

If I said “When times are good, be happy” three times – which is found in Ecclesiastes 7:14, it would not prove anything,

It’s not the only prophecy in Bible about the Prophet Muhammad, but there are many: check the following articles, it will show you some and see if they are words matching only or real signs that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is coming:

Appealing to your personal reason, a bit of a relativistic edge, does not prove anything. “Who can kill or cause death to the Creator?” We would expect only God could do that..

All this are fantasies and imaginations, there is nothing to say that God will or can die, if he dies then he is not a God !!

And your explanation that “he shared” or “they are sharing the responsibility by Father God or Spirit of God” is also imagination..

ALLAH clearly describes all Christians visions and explanations about “God” as hallucination, nothing more !!

Lo! is it not unto Allah that belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and whosoever is in the earth? Those who follow aught instead of Allah follow not (His) partners. They follow only a conjecture, and they do but guess.[10:66]
Those who took partners (in worship) with Allâh will say: "If Allâh had willed, we would not have taken partners (in worship) with Him, nor would our fathers, and we would not have forbidden anything (against His Will)."
Likewise belied those who were before them, (they argued falsely with Allâh's Messengers), till they tasted Our Wrath. Say: "Have you any knowledge (proof) that you can produce before us? Verily, you follow nothing but guess and you do nothing but lie [Yakhresoun]." (148)

The word in Arabic “Yakhresoun” which translated as “guess and lie”, it means more like: “hallucinating” !!

And God asks clearly do you have a clear proof of what you are talking about, such as:
Jesus ever told you that I am “a God and Son of God”, or there are 3 Gods in One, or Holy Spirit is a God too, or You have to believe in Trinity, he even never mentioned this word: “Trinity” in whole Bible !!

He ever said: that I will crucified to carry the Sin on behalf you, Never !!
Clearly mentioning that in Clear words, not a hint, or maybe he said so, or he might mean that !!

ALLAH says:

“Say: "Have you any knowledge (proof) that you can produce before us? Verily, you follow nothing but guess and you do nothing but lie !!”

You said: “– Sin, Abdallah. The Creator would die to save us because He loves us. “

I would like to comment on the long algorithm that you copied who tried hardly and sometimes “insanely” to prove that God had to kill himself for us !!

I will pick some points only not all of them, because it’s really worse than Trinity explanation:

“If He did not damn based upon righteousness, then God is doing wrong.  Since God cannot do anything wrong, then damnation is righteous. “

God doesn’t damn everyone did a sin or bad thing, no, he can forgive and because of that he is called:
Ghaafer: The One who can forgive the Sin,
Ghafour: The One who can forgive many sins,
Ghaffar: The One who can forgive the repeated Sin, means even if someone did his sin many times and asked forgiveness from God each time, he will forgive him many times too.

Proof of this is found in our prayers.  Since God answers our prayers, our prayers have an effect upon God because God is moved to answer.

God does what he wants to do and doesn’t move because of us or our prayers and all our prayers or sins won’t change anything to him, it’s as he said: it’s our deeds paid to us, whoever find good then he thanks God, and whoever find other then he should blame himself.

Since damnation exists (because of the justice of God), we can conclude that sin has a negative effect upon the relationship between the sinner and God.   

Same as before, affect the sinner only, nothing related to God.

Our offense against Him has an infinite effect.  It is the infinite God we have offended, therefore, the sin results in an infinite offense against God.

Same as before.

God cannot arbitrarily forgive the sinner without satisfying His infinite justice.

From where did you get such wrong and twisted conclusion, ALLAH says to ask him for forgiveness and he will forgive us !!

Just because Adam ate a fruit, and God had to kill himself (or his Son) to remove the Sin, or satisfy his infinite justice, so then what he will do for those who kill, steal, rape, destroy, etc. for thousands of people !!

In your logic, he has to create billions and billions of his own sons, and kill them one by one.

Since it is not just to ignore the penalty for sin, and since man cannot satisfy God, there is none left but God to pay for the just penalty of sin.

This is really a “hallucination”, now imagine that you have a driver who drives your car and once he came with a small scratch on your car door, this is a sin for sure !!

Then according to your logic, you don’t punish the driver himself by asking him to fix the car or at least deduct from his salary. No, but you take your own little Son or little daughter and execute (crucify) her !!

Death is a punishment of God and damnation follows death.

If death was the penalty for eating a fruit from a forbidden tree, then what about the killing, stealing, raping, etc…There is must not be a single person left on Earth according to your logic since Son of Adam who killed his bother.

God must then take the place of the sinner and suffer the consequence of the lawful judgment of death upon the sinner.

Sorry to say it again but this is the “Top of Hallucination”..

ALLAH clearly stated his in his book, and saved you from thinking in such as way, ALLAH meant to Adam to live on Earth, since he created him and said to his Angels I will create him to live on Earth, and the stay of Adam in heaven was known temporary, even Adam might know that because when Satan deceived them, he told him to eat from the tree so they become angels or morals never die, so they thought if they eat they will stay forever in heaven, and when they did their sin they asked God for his forgiveness, and he forgave them but their penalty was to live on Earth and to suffer on it, as we are dwelling here on Earth since then, and nothing change whether before Jesus Crucifixion  or after..

ALLAH mentions the correct story about Adam and Eve as following:

And surely, We gave you authority on the earth and appointed for you therein provisions (for your life). Little thanks do you give. (10)
And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being); then We told the angels, "Prostrate yourselves to Adam", and they prostrated themselves, except Iblîs (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrated themselves. (11)
 (Allâh) said: "What prevented you (O Iblîs) that you did not prostrate yourself, when I commanded you?" Iblîs said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (12)
(Allâh) said: "(O Iblîs) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced." (13)
(Iblîs) said: "Allow me respite till the Day they are raised up (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)." (14)
 (Allâh) said: "You are of those respited." (15) (Iblîs) said: "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your Straight Path (16)
 Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them as thankful ones (i.e. they will not be dutiful to You)." (17)
 (Allâh) said (to Iblîs) "Get out from this (Paradise) disgraced and expelled. Whoever of them (mankind) will follow you, then surely I will fill Hell with you all." (18)
 "And O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in Paradise, and eat thereof as you both wish, but approach not this tree otherwise you both will be of the Zâlimûn (unjust and wrong-doers)." (19)
 Then Shaitân (Satan) whispered suggestions to them both in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before); he said: "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save that you should become angels or become of the immortals." (20)
 And he [Shaitân (Satan)] swore by Allâh to them both (saying): "Verily, I am one of the sincere well-wishers for you both." (21)
 So he misled them with deception. Then when they tasted of the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them and they began to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise (in order to cover their shame). And their Lord called out to them (saying): "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you: Verily, Shaitân (Satan) is an open enemy unto you?" (22)
 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers." (23)
 (Allâh) said: "Get down, one of you is an enemy to the other [i.e. Adam, Hawwa (Eve), and Shaitân (Satan),]. On earth will be a dwelling-place for you and an enjoyment, - for a time." (24)
 He said: "Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out (i.e.resurrected)." (25)
 O Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover yourselves (screen your private parts) and as an adornment, and the raiment of righteousness, that is better. Such are among the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, that they may remember (i.e. leave falsehood and follow truth[]). (26)
 O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitân (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents [Adam and Hawwa (Eve)] out of Paradise, stripping them of their raiments, to show them their private parts. Verily, he and Qabîluhu (his soldiers from the jinn or his tribe) see you from where you cannot see them. Verily, We made the Shayâtin (devils) Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) for those who believe not. (7:27)

It isn't against logic for God to be three persons. It may be difficult to understand, and some may not like it, but it isn't illogical.

We talked a lot about Trinity, and I see it’s useless to keep discussing it more, but to comment on the above statement, it’s true it’s NOT difficult on God, but if he said it by himself, and asked us to believe in it, not by not mentioning it completely in all his holy book “trinity”, just building a strange concept by a hint from here and hint from there..

About my ruddiness, when talking about “trinity” or other beliefs, it’s true, and I can’t apologize for this, because really it’s difficult to hold it…

The people of truth or who owns the right belief, it’s difficult to them to respect the wrong beliefs, imagine if you worship the Mighty God alone, and you know that he doesn’t look like anything on Earth, on Air, or under water, and he is the most greatest, and most powerful, and he build the whole universe alone with no help, and he raised the heaven alone and created the Earth and all what is on it alone, then you see someone who worship a crucified human on a stick of wood and call him as God, or someone praying to a Cow, or to a blue elephant statue or to a sleeping man of gold…

How can you respect such person?

Honestly saying, when a true believer sees someone worshiping other than God or an Idol, he wishes to destroy it over his head, but try to control his nerves…

But, I think we inherited this from our father Prophet “Ibrahim”, he also didn’t respect his people beliefs and he destroyed all their Idols, read the story in Quran and see how he felts toward them:

And indeed We bestowed aforetime on Ibrâhim (Abraham) his (portion of) guidance, and We were Well-Acquainted with him (as to his Belief in the Oneness of Allâh). (51)
When he said to his father and his people: "What are these images, to which you are devoted?" (52)
They said:"We found our fathers worshipping them." (53)
He said: "Indeed you and your fathers have been in manifest error." (54)
They said: "Have you brought us the truth, or are you one of those who play about?" (55)
He said: "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who created them and to that I am one of the witnesses. (56)
"And by Allâh, I shall plot a plan (to destroy) your idols after you have gone away and turned your backs." (57)
So he broke them to pieces, (all) except the biggest of them, that they might turn to it. (58)
They said: "Who has done this to our âlihah (gods)? He must indeed be one of the Zalimun (wrong-doers)." (59)
They said: "We heard a young man talking against them, who is called Ibrâhim (Abraham)." (60)
 They said: "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may testify." (61)
They said: "Are you the one who has done this to our gods, O Ibrâhim (Abraham)?" (62)
 [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] said: "Nay, this one, the biggest of them (idols) did it. Ask them, if they can speak!" (63)
 So they turned to themselves and said: "Verily, you are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers)." (64)
 Then they turned to themselves (their first thought and said): "Indeed you [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] know well that these (idols) speak not!" (65)
 [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] said: "Do you then worship besides Allâh, things that can neither profit you, nor harm you? (66)
 "Fie upon you, and upon that which you worship besides Allâh! Have you then no sense?" (67)
 They said: "Burn him and help your âlihah (gods), if you will be doing." (68)
 We (Allâh) said: "O fire! Be you coolness and safety for Ibrâhim (Abraham)!" (69)
And they wanted to harm him, but We made them the worst losers. (70)
And We rescued him and Lut (Lot) to the land which We have blessed for the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinn). (71)
And We bestowed upon him Ishâq (Isaac), and (a grandson) Ya'qûb (Jacob). Each one We made righteous. (72)
And We made them leaders, guiding (mankind) by Our Command, and We revealed them the doing of good deeds, performing Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and the giving of Zakât and of Us (Alone) they were the worshippers. (21:73)

Regarding the other questions list, I will answer them in short:

1)    Do most Muslims believe and teach that the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel?

Yes, and we have to believe in him too, ALLAH says:

Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ): "Whoever is an enemy to Jibrael (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'ân) down to your heart by Allâh's Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e. the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings for the believers. (97)

"Whoever is an enemy to Allâh, His Angels, His Messengers, Jibrael (Gabriel) and Mikael (Michael), then verily, Allâh is an enemy to the disbelievers." (2:98)

2)    Which books of the Bible do you accept? Concerning the New Testament, I understand you only accept the Gospels, but do you accept all four Gospels?

I think Baranabas is the best of them, and he is the most accurate.

3)    What do you think about the Book of Mormon? It also claims to be a further revelation from God – what would make it any different than our claims? (Note that the Book of Mormon is one of four “revelations” to Joseph Smith. As you know, I do not accept Mormonism.)

There is no revelation after Muhammad, what so ever, and other than that it’s a lie, ALLAH says that Muhammad is the last messenger, and therefore after him there is non.

4)    If you would list them out – what are your objections to Christianity, and not merely based on opinion?

Trinity: saying that Jesus and Holy Ghost are gods beside God.
Claiming that Jesus is Son of God, or Mary is Mother of God !!
Jesus being crucified and not been saved by God.
The Sin inherited from Adam !!
Not believing in the last prophet Muhammad (PBUH) .
Not believing and following the last revelation from God the Holy Quran.

5)    What evidence do we have that the Bible has changed? Answered above.

6)    What evidence do we have that the Qu’ran has not changed? Answered above.

7)    What evidence do we have (aside from citing the Qu’ran and the effects of Muhammad) that Islam is true? Bear in mind that Christians could cite the life and effects of Jesus, but it does not prove the religion.

Islam is the only religion who calls to worshiping God, and only God, the Creator of this universe.
The Holy Quran is a miraculous book, if you just read it you will figure it alone, of course if ALLAH wants, and you wanted honestly to follow the right way to your God.

8)    This is a bit of a personal question. Have you always been Muslim, were you raised Muslim, and if you were not, what convinced you?

Thanks ALLAH for that, I’ve been raised in a Muslim family, but this is not enough to become a Muslim, Muslim must learn his Islam, and Thanks to ALLAH again then to my parents they taught me the way to learn Islam, and I had too many questions in mind when I was young, I used to ask my father and he answered me all, and when I was older I tried to answer them by myself and search for their answers, the good thing that I was able to figure them while reading Quran or Hadith.
Thanks to ALLAH and I ask him always that I don’t die except on Islam, whatsoever..

9)    Was Muhammad sinless? (This is an honest question, not trying to make any attacks or make any false claims, but to ask your opinion)

Yes, as all other prophets, but you may hear bad things on him, but it’s only unbelievers (devil) stories similar to what they said badly on other prophets and inserted in the Old testament, of course all are not correct..

10) The Qur'an says to have no divisions within Islam. "The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the [sic] which we have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which we enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them..." (42:13). 

Question: If Islam is the truth, which of the divisions within it is the "most" true?

The verse clearly asks the Muslims not to divide their religion, and stay on the same belief of all other prophets because they all comes from God, ALLAH says:

Verily, those who disbelieve in Allâh and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allâh and His Messengers (by believing in Allâh and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between. (150) They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment. (151) And those who believe in Allâh and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of them (Messengers), We shall give them their rewards, and Allâh is Ever Oft¬Forgiving, Most Merciful. (4:152)

And asking the muslims not to divide the religion, because usually those the believers after many generations are who divide the religion and make them into different groups and divisions, because of the bad interpretations to the religion resources, and this is natural, and Prophet Muhammad predicted that and told us that we will divide, Prophet said that:

The Jews will divided on 71 groups, all will be in hell !!
And, the Christians will divide on 72 Groups, all in hell !!
And, the muslims will divide on 73 groups, all in hell except one !!
They asked him: who is the saved group?
He answered those who stay on what I am and my companions on (i.e. beliefs).

Thanks to ALLAH, this group is over 95% of the current muslims count and all other groups are very minor, few millions or few thousands of people.

11) I do have one more question: what can you tell me about Jinn? About their appearance, what they do, and if they are different from angels. I believe I recall reading n the Qu'ran that Satan is an angel but I also read that he is a Jinn. I was a bit confused, thought I would ask you.

Yes, Satan was among the Jinn, but he served with the Angels and led them to fight the creation who lived before us on Earth, and since then he was counted among the Angels.

But, when ALLAH commanded the Angels to prostrate to Adam, he asked them all, and Iblis the Satan was among who received the command from God and he had to obey, but he refused..

It’s like, when the Chief of an Army sent a command to his army of soldiers standing in front of him, then they must all obey this command, it’s not allowed that someone of them will refuse because I am not a soldier I am only a cook, or writer, or mail boy, and I am not solider !!
Being under the Army title, means you have to obey the command given to you by the Army leadership regardless your position or title..

And Quran clearly states that Satan was from Jinn, and never says he is an Angel, although he used to stay with the Angels, so he had to obey the order given to them:.

And (remember) when We said to the angels;"Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated themselves except Iblîs (Satan). He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblîs) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zâlimûn (polytheists, and wrong-doers). (18:50)

Finally, sorry for being late again in my reply, hope my answers satisfy you and apologize my rudeness, of course it’s not personal toward you.

I wish if you want to continue in our debate, that you start my sending point by point, in such a way that we don’t take so much time in replying to each other or writing so much pages each time.

My best Regards,


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