A Debate with a Christian: Q- How to prove the "Valley of Baca" in Palms 84, means really the "Valley of Makkah"?

The wonderful song in Palms 84 says the following:

4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.

5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.

6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

7 They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.

٤ طُوبَى لِلسَّاكِنِينَ فِي بَيْتِكَ، أَبَدًا يُسَبِّحُونَكَ. سِلاَهْ.

٥ طُوبَى لأُنَاسٍ عِزُّهُمْ بِكَ. طُرُقُ بَيْتِكَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ.

٦ عَابِرِينَ فِي وَادِي الْبُكَاءِ، يُصَيِّرُونَهُ يَنْبُوعًا. أَيْضًا بِبَرَكَاتٍ يُغَطُّونَ مُورَةَ.

٧ يَذْهَبُونَ مِنْ قُوَّةٍ إِلَى قُوَّةٍ. يُرَوْنَ قُدَّامَ اللهِ فِي صِهْيَوْنَ.

But before decoding this prophecy, we have to note the following rules in such work:

- We don’t prove idea then apply the prophecy on it, and this is the mistake that many others who tried to explain this prophecy, whether Muslims or Christians.

- The prophecy may lead to an idea even it doesn’t refer to it from first sight.

- To decode a prophecy, all words must fit not some of them, and each is like a digit in one password, so if one didn’t fit correctly then it was not explained correctly.

Now, let’s decode this prophecy from the beginning:

1- Who are they?

The 4 verses talk about “men, he, they, who, whose”, such as:

They dwell, they still praise, they go, in whose heart, whose strength, who passing, everyone appear..

And reordering these words, show that the verses are talking about:

Men “people” love a place in their heart, rely on their God strength, increasing day after day, passing in a valley to God’s House, appraising him still (always)

2- Where is this place?

Let’s collect all related words to the place, such as:

Your house (of God), ways of them (many ways to reach), Valley of Baca (name), rain can fill it as pool, appear in Zion before God (in front of).

The available explanation are the following:

Christians say: it’s a valley near Jerusalem, where David soldiers pass through their way to return to Jerusalem and Baca it means whether: the Valley of weeping, or Valley of Balsam trees, or valley of Bokym.

Muslims say: it’s a valley of Baca in Mecca, where Kaba is located.

Analysis for Christian Point of View:

1- Bokym and Balsam trees, both are mentioned in the following verses:

¹ And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. [Judges 2:1]

23 And when David inquired of the LORD, he said, Thou shalt not go up; but fetch a compass behind them, and come upon them over against the mulberry trees.

24 And let it be, when thou hearest the sound of a going in the tops of the mulberry trees, that then thou shalt bestir thyself: for then shall the LORD go out before thee, to smite the host of the Philistines. [Samuel 5:23-24]

And we notice that both words are mentioned as following:

Boykm valley as Bochim <> Bacca Valley.

Balsam trees = Mulberry trees <> Baca trees.

Therefore, if God wants to mention any of them he would say:

Valley of Boykm, or Valley of Mulberry trees, as both were mentioned before.

So, both options are wrong and they don’t equal to Baca, otherwise we are inserting irrelevant words inside the prophecy and we'll loose it’s real meaning.

Baca valley is not mentioned any where else in the whole bible (old and new testament).

So, it must mean a name of place nothing else.

2- It’s a valley near Jerusalem who David’s soldiers were crying or people crying passing through it:

But, this doesn’t match in the first part, about the people “they” !!

People must dwell there, they always praise GOD there, they must pass on its ways always, people always think about it, and all this don’t match with a valley near Jerusalem, which is unknown on the map of Palestine till today..

So, this option is out too.

3- It means a weeping valley, not a name of Baca only.

From Bible Dictionary:

Baca, Valley of definition

(Ps. 84:6; R.V., "valley of weeping," marg., "or balsam trees"), probably a valley in some part of Palestine, or generally some one of the valleys through which pilgrims had to pass on their way to the sanctuary of Jehovah on Zion; or it may be figuratively "a valley of weeping."

We will keep this option for a while now.

Analysis for Muslim Point of View (Makkah):

1- About who are those people “They”:

Men “people” love a place in their heart, rely on their God strength, increasing day after day, passing in a valley to God’s House, appraising him still (always)

- Men “people” love a place in their heart,

It’s very clearly that Muslims fit to those people as they love Makkah the most possible, and they direct in their pray to Kabba, so they love it so much and it’s in their hearts always.

- passing in a valley to God’s House

Yes, they pass in the valley of Baca (Al-haram mosque, Kaba) and always, almost every day, every hour, every minute, even every second there is someone passing in this valley whether going or returning from this mosque, day and night.

- appraising him still (always)

We all see on TV every day, how Muslims are circling the house of GOD day and night, how they flow into a (well), like a white stream running in the roads of the valley, calling for their God, appraising him and him only, saying and repeating:

لبيك اللهم لبيك, لبيك لا شريك لك, ان الحمد والنعمة لك والملك, لا شريك لك

Which means in English:

“At your disposal thee, O Mighty God, at your disposal thee, at your disposal is not a partner to you, that all praise and blessing to you and the rule, thee has no partner”

Also, this fits that they are appraising the God always.

- rely on their God strength, increasing day after day,

For relying on God’s strength, it’s within Muslim beliefs to rely only on ALLAH, which called “Tawkul”.

Increasing day after day, let’s see their numbers and compare them with others, from religious Tolerance.org (Christian site), which shows although Islam is the newest religion among other large religions (622Ce), but it’s the second one in followers numbers (1.6bn), and the only religion increasing (and fast).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

So about the people, Muslims option is completely fulfilled.

Now let’s see the most difficult part, the location.

- About the place (Valley)?

Your house (of God), ways of them (many ways to reach), Valley of Baca (name), rain can fill it as pool, appear in Zion before God (in front of).

Let’s check one by one:

- Your house (of God) , ways of them (many ways to reach),:

Yes, very obvious since Kaba is located there and its name the House of God, even the mosque is called Haram, which also means sacred house of God.

And yes, there are many ways to reach it, some come by cars, some by planes to Jeddah airport, some through sea from Sudan and Egypt, some from South from Yemen, some from East from Gulf, India, etc… Almost from every country in the world and through all directions.

- Valley of Baca (name)

How to prove that this valley in Makkah is called “Baca”?

1^st proof:

The holy Quran, says clearly that the house of God “Kaba” is built in valley of Baca:

إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكًا وَهُدًى لِلْعَالَمِينَ (96 (

فِيهِ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ مَقَامُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۖ وَمَنْ دَخَلَهُ كَانَ آمِنًا ۗ وَلِلَّهِ عَلَى النَّاسِ حِجُّ الْبَيْتِ مَنِ اسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلًا ۚ وَمَنْ كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَنِيٌّ عَنِ الْعَالَمِينَ (97(

Verily, the first House appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (valley in Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamîn (the mankind and jinn). (96)

In it are manifest signs, the Maqâm (place) of Ibrâhim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allâh, those who can afford the expenses; and whoever, then Allâh stands not in need of any of the 'Alamîn (Al- Emran 96-97)

2^nd proof:

Let’s check the Arab dictionary for “Baca”:

From Lesan Al-Arab and Makkays Allougha, we find the following:

وبَكَّةُ مَكَّةُ، سميت ذلك لأنها كانت تَبُكّ أعناق الجبابرة إذا ألحدوا فيها بظلم، وقيل: لأن الناس يتباكّون فيها من كل وجه أي يتزاحمون وقال الحسن: أي يتباكُّون فيها من* كُلّ وجهٍ

As noun, it means “Makkah” because they come and cry in it, and push themselves while circling (Tawaf) Kabah:

إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكًا وَهُدًى لِلْعَالَمِينَ (96 (

As a verb: it’s weeping.

بكا: البُكاء يقصر ويمد؛ قاله الفراء وغيره، إذا مَدَدْتَ أَردتَ الصوتَ الذي يكون مع البكاء، وإذا قَصرت أَردتَ الدموع

Which makes this answer the same as 3^rd option of Christian point of view (Bible dictionary), that this valley of Baca in Makkah city is the “valley of weeping”?

But we didn’t finish yet, let’s continue..

- rain can fill it as pool,

If it rains, it will fill?

Let’s see the following photos of last raining of Makkah in November 2010:

The mosque floor is full of water, looks like a pool..

And Muslims children are playing happily as playing in a pool….

And this is a real problem for this mosque, as it’s the lowest point in Makkah and as a valley, every time it rains it makes pools inside, even much more than in the above photos, and there is no valid solution yet ..

- appear in Zion before God (in front of).

And this is the most difficult to prove !!!

But let’s try:

“Before” here means “in front”: From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/before

be·fore (b-fôr, -fr), adv.

1. Earlier in time: They called me the day before.

2. In front; ahead.

Therefore, how can “Valley of Baca in Makkah” appears in front of God?

Does God mean house of God, messenger of God, or Spirit of God like Jesus !!

But what is the most related to Jesus (“messenger of God” for Muslims and “son of God” as for Christians), in Jerusalem?

Very simple: the Church of the Resurrection.

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, known as the Church of the Resurrection (Anastasis) to Eastern Orthodox Christians, is a church in the Old City of Jerusalem that is the holiest Christian site in the world. http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-church-of-holy-sepulchre

So, if God, or from “Church of God” can see the valley in Zion, which also means through Zion, but where is Zion?

From Arabic resources:

صهيون = الحصن و جبل الحصن يقع الي جنوب الغربي لبيت المقدس وتكون جزءا كبيرا منه البلدة القديمة والتي يمر اسوارها من فوقه و سمي جبل "المكبر" عندما دخل عمر بن الخطاب القدس وكبر، ثم تسلم مفاتيحها من بطرياركها صفرونيوس عام 15 هجري، الموافق 637 ميلادي.

« صهيون = تسيون» اسم تل وقلعة في القدس (يُشار له في اللغة العربية بـ «جبل المكبر» أو «جبل الزيتون»). وأصل الاسم غير معروف، ولكن هناك من ذهب إلى القول بأن الاسم مشتق من الكلمة الحورية «صيا» التي تعني «قلعة أو صخرة أو مكاناً جافاً أو ماءً جارياً». وقد استُخدم الاسم، في بداية الأمر، للإشارة إلى قلعة اليبوسيين جنوب شرقي القدس أسفل تل أوفيل وجبل الهيكل أو جبل البيت أو هضبة الحرم. وقد سُمِّيت «بيت داود» بعد أن وقعت في يد داود. وبعد أن نقل لها حكمه، أصبحت كلمة «جبل صهيون» تشير إلى كل من تل أوفيل وجبل البيت، وهذا هو الاستعمال الذي شاع في زمن الحشمونيين حينما كان يُشار إلى جبل البيت بأنه جبل صهيون. ويُقال إن داود قد دُفن فيه. ولكن، مع القرن الأول الميلادي، أصبح الموضع الحالي الذي يوجد جنوب غربي مدينة القدس والذي يُشار إليه باعتباره جبل صهيون، مع أن معظم العلماء يرون أنه لا يمثل موضع جبل صهيون الأصلي.

http://edu.arabsgate.com/showthread.php?t=213066&page=20

Which means that Zion is a small hill on southeast of Jerusalem and is named now as “Jabal Almuakbir”, and it was the south gate for this city for all people who came from the south and east. (And, it’s not related to Zion Mountain that Israel named after city occupation in 1967, we are talking about the biblically “Zion hill”).

But, who can prove this more than the Israeli themselves? As in the below photo:

They occupied the mountain “Jabal Al Mukaber” facing side and call it: “Nof Zion” Jewish settlement.

Therefore, now we know where is Zion..

And we know that God here, means “Church of God” or house of God, and it’s the most existing religious site even before the Muslim site.

So, if we took a line of sight from this “Church of God” to valley of Kabbah will it pass in Zion?

Let’s see together, using google Earth:

Starting point: Church

Continue descending ….

Continue descending, we reach Makkah ….

Continue descending, Let’s go to the Valley of Bacca “the Kaba” ….

Reaching exactly to Kaaba ….

But, we didn’t see where the line of sight passed through…

Let’s go north again and reach south of Jerusalem…

Let’s get closer a little bit …

YES, IT”S TRUE

From Church “house of God” to Kaba in Valley of Baca, it passes in Zion hill “Jabal Al-Mukaber”…

Means also “appear in front of God in Zion” has also fulfilled.

Therefore the whole prophecy is about “Baca” as the valley where house of God is located, which is “AL-KABA” without any single doubt: