Wednesday, December 28, 2011

Debate with a Priest (6) – Difference between Jesus Religion and Christianity!!

Dear Abdallah,
First off, this is a bit of a long response, so I understand if it takes a day or two to read through or reply.
1) Thank you, figured I would ask regardless. And yes, I agree that there is only one path to God. Even if all paths led to the same door, that door is locked - and only one key fits. It is that we disagree on which key fits.
But thankfully, that does not hinder our conversation! I do agree, however, that much of the world's religions have arisen due to demonic influence, but obviously not all. If you wish to learn more about those religions, I have more material on them, I can tell you what I know if you wish.
2) Appreciate it, thanks! I will simply continue to read the Qu'ran then.
3) This is where discussion begins. I will try to answer your points one at a time - I apologize if this email response is a bit long, it likely will be. You had said:
"Jesus Christ, is one of the mightiest messengers of God, and as all messengers of God they were muslims and call for Islam, which is to submit someone’s will to God’s will, and the proof he was a muslim is in the bible:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [Mathew 7:21] He was not crucified as Christian claims but was saved by God and raised to 2nd heaven where he will be waiting for his second return, as ALLAH will not leave us alone in face of the Anti-Christ and all the devils with him (especially the beast)."
First of all, would you be able to elaborate a bit on the "second heaven?" I've heard it mentioned before that there are different levels or different heavens according to Islam, I should like to be informed on that belief, if possible.
Second, let's examine the text: "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

To note, and please do not take this the wrong way, but if you believe the Bible is corrupted, why quote it? If you do not believe it is corrupted, you must also consider the claims of Jesus that He actually claimed to be God, and many others claimed He was God. But I will touch on that in a bit. Also, Jesus here is called "Lord, Lord" and does not deny the title - and at the same time, calls God His "Father," which you noted already you disagree with. So citing this particular text does not aid in the case, and indeed, He does not claim "I am Muslim," nor does any historical or archaeological evidence show that Jesus was Muslim.
As for Jesus' crucifixion being claimed only by Christian, I politely disagree, my dear friend. You can read more in my entry, "Did Jesus Really Exist? Is There Any Historical Evidence?", but I will cite a few examples here. In the second century, a satirist named Lucian spoke scornfully of Christ and of Christians. (much of the following is quoted from my article) Lucian conveys that Christ was:
 "...the man crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshiping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws."
From this, we can glean that this man was crucified in Palestine, that Christians worshiped Jesus as God, and that they lived under the New Covenant found in the Bible. Lucian was not a Christian.
Yet another source is a letter of someone named Mara Bar-Serapion. In The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?, F.F. Bruce notes that in the "...British Museum [there is] an interesting manuscript preserving the text of a letter written some time later than A.D. 73, but how much later we cannot be sure. This letter was sent by a Syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion to his son Serapion.

Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ:"

"'What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished.

God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given.'"

"On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going forth to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defence come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defence and hanged him on the eve of Passover." Elsewhere in the Jewish Talmuds, it is clarified that he was killed via crucifixion.

Paul himself applies "hanging" in reference to Jesus, citing Deuteronomy 21:23. (See Galatians 3:13) Those who wrote the Jewish Talmuds were not Christian either. Flavius Josephus, 1st century Jewish historian writes in The Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.33:

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

Scholars hotly dispute that Josephus actually wrote [this] text (often referred to as the Testimonium Flavianum), with the knowledge that Josephus was a dedicated Jew, certainly not Christian. Had he been Christian, he likely would have added more about Jesus or other figures of the day, though several places he does mention Emperor Tiberius and Pilate. He also mentions John the Baptist, though at greater length than Jesus, suggested that if a Christian interloper modified Josephus' text concerning Christ, adding phrases such as "...if it be lawful to call him a man," "He was the Christ," "he appeared to them alive again the third day...," etc. 

It is generally accepted that what Josephus likely wrote was as follows: “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

There are a few points to bear in mind when examining this "reconstructed text." First of all, Josephus would have had no issue with calling Jesus a wise man, or a doer of surprising feats. Jesus was well known as a miracle-worker, this was likely accepted by him. Also, this passage contains things that a Christian interloper likely would not have said, such as Jesus having "won over" many people. The Gospels never indicate that Jesus preached to the Gentiles. He did visit Gentile territory when he came upon the two demon possessed men (one of them Legion), but He did not stay long enough.

Also, when we look at the reconstructed text, it seems to paint Christians and Christianity in a bit of a negative light. Josephus seems surprised that there are still Christians around, illustrating a bit of a hostile tone in this line. This is also why early Christian Apologists did not cite this passage, and likely why Origen mentions that Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah. If Christians wrote the entire passage, Josephus writes not long after about John the Baptist - and at greater length. Had Christians edited this passage in a major way, they likely would have added more, but it seems as if not much was "tweaked." One last consideration: 

"a 10th century Arabic translation of the Testimonium has been discovered and it is quite close to the reconstructed passage... A good number of reputable scholars believe the author of the Arabic version of the Testimonium had access to a version of Antiquities whose textual tradition pre-dated the Christian interpolation. Thus, the Arabic text likely helps confirm the reconstructed version of the Testimonium."

There are other writers that refer to Jesus, both Christian and non-Christian, such as Justin Martyr and others. Celsus, a critic of Christianity, wrote a attack on Christianity, titled True Doctrine. In it, he argues that Jesus was a magician and a sorcerer.

One writer said, "This evidence arguably confirms that Jesus existed (Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus) and had a brother named James who was killed when Ananus was high priest (Josephus). Jesus was known to be a wonder worker (Josephus, Celsus), a wise man and a teacher (Josephus) and was regarded by his followers as divine (Pliny).

He was crucified (Tacitus, Lucian, Josephus) under Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius (Tacitus, Josephus) and his crucifixion seems to have been accompanied by a very long darkness (Thallus). This crucifixion, far from squelching the movement, seems to have been a catalyst for its growth (Tacitus).

By 49 CE it was large enough to have incited a riot, resulting in Claudius kicking all Jews out of Rome for awhile, thus confirming Luke’s report in Acts (Suetonius). By the early sixties CE the movement had become so widespread that Jesus’ disciples could be plausibly blamed by Nero for a city-wide fire (Tacitus). And by the turn of the century it had spread all the way to Bythnia where it was large enough to cause problems for the governor (Pliny)."

In other words, it was not just Christians who claimed Jesus was crucified. In fact, I wrote an article not that long ago titled "Early Christianity: The 1st Corinthians 15 Creed" which shows a creed of the early church, given ca.35-38 AD, not ten years after the death and resurrection of Christ, which show that the claim that he died and rose from the dead three days later has been around since the inception of Christianity.

Please read the articles I am mentioning, it will greatly help the flow of our conversation - and I will be sure to read your articles too. But please do read them, I am mentioning them for a reason. But from that research I concluded, as many others have, that the claim that Jesus was crucified has been around from day one of Christianity - and no one, not the Roman or the Jews, ever claimed that He was not. They were the ones who claimed that He was crucified as well - this is recorded even in Roman records taken during the time of Pontius Pilate.

Now, you also said, "Originally, Jesus had came with Islam to Children of Israel, but the diversion starts when Paul entered to the new religion, and first change was done when they agreed to cancel the “Circumcision” on the new converted people in the first council led by James brother of Jesus 20 years after him."

Again, to my knowledge, we do not have any evidence that Jesus came with Islam to Israel, but with Christianity instead. As for the "circumcision": " There are different issues that are wrapped up in the question of whether males should be circumcised or not. One issue is that of religious teaching: what does the Bible, God’s Word, say? Another issue is: as a matter of health, should males be circumcised? The Christian view of circumcision is probably best described as a combination of the two.

Concerning the first issue, since we are no longer under the Old Testament Law as Christians, circumcision is no longer required. This is brought out in a number of New Testament passages, among which are the following: Acts 15;
Galatians 2:1-3; 5:1-11; 6:11-16; 1 Corinthians 7:17-20; Colossians 2:8-12; Philippians 3:1-3. As these passages proclaim, being saved from our sins is received through faith in Christ to save us from our sins, and it is this act of turning from our sin and self-righteousness and turning instead to reliance upon Christ’s finished work on the cross that makes us “circumcised of heart” and that the works of the flesh accomplish nothing.
In Acts 16:3, Paul had a missionary helper, Timothy, circumcised so that his being uncircumcised would not be a hindrance to them as they sought to reach out to the unsaved Jews on their missionary journeys. Thus, although the Bible gives Gentile (non-Jewish) believers the liberty of not being circumcised, it was a liberty that Timothy was willing to give up for the sake of reaching out to unsaved Jews. However, as the passages in Galatians bring out, Paul refused to compromise the issue with those who said that one must be circumcised in order to be either saved or sanctified in Christ. Of course, this incident does not apply today because Christians need not be circumcised in order to reach unbelievers, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Once again, the principle of the circumcision of the heart is at the heart of the matter.

There are practical issues involved with circumcision as well. Some parents have their sons circumcised so that they will look like all the other males in their culture. Some parents are concerned that their son would someday be in a locker room and find themselves different from everyone else. In some cultures, though, males are not commonly circumcised. There is also the issue of health. Doctors debate back and forth in regard to whether there are any health benefits to circumcision. Any couple with such concerns should definitely speak with a doctor in regards to this issue." So you see, circumcision was not under the New Covenant.

In fact, Jeremiah mentions this covenant that was initiated by Christ ca.590's BC. He mentioned the "new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" in Jeremiah 31:31. Circumcision was no longer needed in the time of Christ, because when Christ had the Last Supper, He fulfilled the Old Covenant and initiated the New Covenant, which we are now under.

You stated, "Within 3 centuries with continuous changes on this pure religion from God, it becomes completely different, it changed from worshiping one God to trinity, and they converted Jesus from messenger of God to son of God, copying what is in other pagan religions around Palestine and in Roman empire in this religion, and the First Council of Nicaea was a major step in this diversion to completely alter this religion... Returning to Christianity, starting from 3rd century major changes had entered into religion, including Trinity and too much of evil beliefs..."

However, it was not in the 3rd century, Abdallah. The New Testament has been shown to be accurate and archaeologically attested (there are entries I have written demonstrating this, if you wish to read them), and we must consider: if there is any mention of Jesus having been worshiped as God before the third century, the claim is void.

Indeed, we find the writings of Pliny the Younger, Governor of Bithynia writing to Roman Emperor Trajan in 112 AD - well within the span of the second generation of church fathers. Pliny wrote that Christians " were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god..." Thus we find that Jesus was worshiped as God before the 3rd century.

Allow me to answer the next point: "every time I have to think in Christianity in medieval, the image of dark Europe which was sank in blood, dirtiness, ignorance and sickness because of such beliefs, the People of religion tortured themselves by locking themselves in isolated monasteries with no women and families, which really led them to madness, then they didn’t stop there but they imposed an insane laws on the poor people even on the kings and princes of Europe, they killed many by their names and their own interpretation of the bible."

Now, consider the Crusades: "The crusades have provided some of the most frequent arguments against the Christian faith. Some Islamic terrorists even claim that their terrorist attacks are revenge for what Christians did in the crusades. So, what were the crusades and why are they viewed as such a big problem for the Christian faith?

First of all, the crusades should not be referred to as the “Christian crusades.” Most of the people involved in the crusades were not truly Christians, even though they claimed to be. The name of Christ was abused, misused, and blasphemed by the actions of many of the crusaders.

Second, the crusades took place from approximately A.D. 1095 to 1230. Should the unbiblical actions of supposed Christians hundreds of years ago still be held against Christians today?

Third, not that this is an adequate excuse, but Christianity is not the only religion with a violent past. In actuality, the crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately A.D. 200 to 900, the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Turkey was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam became powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and even murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church and “Christian” kings/emperors from Europe ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken.

The actions that many so-called Christians took in the crusades were still deplorable. There is no biblical justification for conquering lands, murdering civilians, and destroying cities in the name of Jesus Christ. At the same time, Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.

To summarize briefly, the crusades were attempts in the 11th through 13th centuries A.D. to reclaim land in the Middle East that had been conquered by Muslims. The crusades were brutal and evil. Many people were forced to “convert” to Christianity. If they refused, they were put to death. The idea of conquering a land through war and violence in the name of Christ is completely unbiblical. Many of the actions that took place in the crusades were completely antithetical to everything the Christian faith stands for.

How can we respond when, as a result of the crusades, the Christian faith is attacked by atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and those of other religions?

We can respond in the following ways:
1) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of people who lived 900+ years ago?
2) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of everyone who claims to represent your faith?
Trying to blame all of Christianity for the crusades is analogous to blaming all Muslims for Islamic terrorism.” – And I do not blame all Muslims, this you know. Likewise, these bloody wars from the Crusades to the Inquisition were not representative of Christianity, any more than many may claim that attacks such as 9-11 are representative of all Muslims – which is not true, many are peaceful, but this you already know. No one is accusing you of following in the footsteps of the actions of those who advocated the "convert or die" method, likewise, those Christians are not representative of all of Christianity any more than a few Muslims would be representative of the whole.

4) Mormons are a Christian Cult. For example, I am a nondenominational Christian, whereas Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, etc are Denominations, but Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian Cults, and I strongly disagree with their beliefs as Cults. I am currently reading the Book of Mormon but I tell you: I find many internal inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies. If you wish to learn more about Mormonism, the Book of Mormon, their founder Joseph Smith, their beliefs, and how Christians view it all, see here: and I do not personally know any Mormons, but if I meet any, I will let you know.

5) The Trinity is perhaps the biggest thing that separates the Christian God from the Muslim God. "Which impossible to be seen or even to imagine, can you imagine a creature which is half human, half a animal and half a tree !! These are 3 natures in One!!"

However, Abdallah, we both know that nothing is impossible for an all-powerful, infinite Creator. God is not bound by limits that we are, it is not unreasonable, impossible, or illogical for God to exist in one.

For example, consider a person who has multiple personality disorder: still one person, yet exists in more than one personality. To demonstrate this and to show that the Bible does teach the Trinity, see AiG's article:

Again, please read each article I refer to, and I will read yours - it will help us both, if nothing else, understand one another’s beliefs and position a bit better. If nothing else, this may help a bit: "The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (
Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (
Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (
Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9).

In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (
John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see
Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (
1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (
1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (
Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34)."

6 & 7) Thank you, much appreciated.

8) "Did Jesus ever say that he created the universe and created us the human? No, never.." The New Testament, which has been accurately preserved, existing with over 24,600 copies - and even if we had none of these copies, we could still construct the New Testament from the writings of the early Church Fathers as they quoted from it so much, proving it has not changed over time, along with the Dead Sea Scrolls containing fragments and portions of the New Testament, we see that, yes, Jesus did claim to be God. To demonstrate this fact, I wrote a full article:
"Did Jesus Really Claim To Be God?" Again, I will read yours, but please read mine as well so that we can understand one another’s beliefs easier. In short, yes, Jesus claimed to be God. If you quote certain passages from the New Testament yet consider the others in which Jesus demonstrates His claim to deity, it would be picking and choosing, and we cannot afford this luxury if we seek truth.

But I will answer another point, which may be a bit confusing. This is from my article: "
Understand that when Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, He was not saying that God the Father came upon Mary, as Mormonism teaches, and had intimate relations with her. On the contrary, the angel Gabriel explained to Mary in the record from Dr. Luke, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). Matthew 1:20 conveys, "But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit." It is not difficult to believe in the virgin birth, indeed, it is actually achievable by modern science through insemination.

The claim to be the Son of God, understood in the first century, was to be "of the same nature as God." Jesus was not claiming to be the biological Son of God, but in very nature, God, as seen in Philippians 2 and Hebrews 1. "Another example can be found in John 17:12 where Judas is described as the “son of perdition.” John 6:71 tells us that Judas was the son of Simon. What does John 17:12 mean by describing Judas as the “son of perdition”? The word perdition means “destruction, ruin, waste.” Judas was not the literal son of “ruin, destruction, and waste,” but those things were the identity of Judas' life. Judas was a manifestation of perdition. In this same way, Jesus is the Son of God. The Son of God is God. Jesus is God made manifest (John 1:1, 14)."

"Whether I am going to hell or to heaven? For sure I don’t know, because my destiny is in God’s hands and nobody knows except him, but I hope and ask him a lot and always to be among the accepted ones. In general, Muslim faith must be within 2 limits: Hope & Fear. Hope: that will be forgiven, and Fear: from being punished for his bad deeds in this life."

Understandably, you have mentioned before that in Islam, there is no assurance of salvation. However, in Christianity, there is. This is why Christians have assurance: "How can you know for sure if you are saved? Consider 1 John 5:11-13: “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” Who is it that has the Son? It is those who have believed in Him and accepted Him (John 1:12). If you have Jesus, you have life. Not temporary life, but eternal. God wants us to have assurance of our salvation. We cannot live our Christian lives wondering and worrying each day whether or not we are truly saved. That is why the Bible makes the plan of salvation so clear.

Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved (John 3:16; Acts 16:31). Do you believe that Jesus is the Savior, that He died to pay the penalty for your sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21)? Are you trusting Him alone for salvation? If your answer is yes, you are saved! Assurance means “having been put beyond all doubt.” By taking God's Word to heart, you can “put beyond all doubt” the fact and reality of your eternal salvation.

Jesus Himself affirms this regarding those who have believed in Him: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand” (
John 10:28-29).

Eternal life is just that—eternal. There is no one, not even yourself, who can take Christ's God-given gift of salvation away from you. We hide God's Word in our hearts so that we do not sin against Him (Psalm 119:11), and this includes the sin of doubt. Take joy in what God's Word is saying to you, that instead of doubting we can live with confidence! We can have the assurance from Christ's own Word that our salvation will never be in question. Our assurance is based on God's love for us through Jesus Christ."(From

I had planned on quoting the full text of each article I mentioned, but this already long reply would have been much too long, hence why I mentioned the link only, but I assure you, each is important. Please take the time to read each one I mentioned, take a few days if you must, and know that I will read the links you mentioned as well. There are two other things:

1) You mentioned that the deity of Christ was based off of Pagan gods of the time such as Romans or Greeks. Recently, I tackled that claim on my website, and this is the result, it may be enlightening: "Is Jesus A Copy Of Pagan Gods?" Also, I had only end one question this time:

When do you believe the Madhi will come, and does the Bible talk about his coming anywhere?

Thank you, my friend. Again, I apologize for the long reply, I know that I do not need to, but it is rather long. If anything, that simply means that we are both people who can sit through interfaith conversation without losing our cool, and calmly discuss one anothers beliefs and opinions.

Feel free to take as much time as you need to read those articles, but though I have said it before, I cannot stress enough: my beliefs will become clearer if you read the entries. If you wish to comment on them, however, please do so on the email, I find the length problem with those comments difficult to deal with, email does not seem to have a length limit. I appreciate all of your time and effort, Abdallah, I will go and read your entries, and I'll pray for your safety, my friend.

God bless you, and take care.
PS - I have yet to ask, if there is anything you need prayer for or that you need to talk about, I am always around, so feel free to let me know, that is what I am here for. 

Another Message:

There was one more point I meant to add. This claim is another which comes from, but it is one I found true, though I would have worded it differently: "Even if Christianity were false, the Quran still has an insurmountable problem because it makes judgments against Christians for believing things that they do not (nor have they ever) believed. For example, the Quran teaches that Christians believe the Trinity is the Father, the Mother (Mary), and the Son (Sura 5:73-75, 116), and the Quran also teaches that Christians believe that God had sex with Mary to have a son (Suras 2:116; 6:100-101; 10:68; 16:57; 19:35; 23:91; 37:149-151; 43:16-19). If the Quran is really from God, then it should at least be able to accurately report what Christians believe."

Indeed, Christianity teaches that the Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, not the Father, the Son, and Mary. Muslim Scholars I have found also cite the Father, Son and Mary as the Trinity - not all of course, but some. 

I was curious about your take. If the Qu'ran was the Word of God, why would it have said this? Catholicism teaches that Mary was the Holy Mother of Jesus - but not the whole of Christianity. In fact, outside of Catholicism, Mary is taught to be nothing more than the mother of Jesus, not a venerated saint who is to be prayed to and worshiped. I disagree with the Catholic view of Mary. So I suppose I was curious about your thoughts on this as well.

Take care,

Hello, Abdallah. I hope my previous emails did not alienate you or discontinue our conversation, that was not the intention, but to hold up my end of the conversation. I understand my previous email was rather long, and I apologize if it was too long, but if you are willing, I am willing to continue dialogue. I had a few questions, actually.

I read all of the articles that you mentioned, and though I found some historical problems when mentioning Christianity, the articles were still informative to see the Muslim point of view. However, the levels of Heaven is a topic that I am still a bit confused on - would you be able to explain that further? Also, could you elaborate on the differences between Shia and Sunni Islam? I hope my reply to your last email was sufficient, I tried not to make it too long but at the same time, it necessitated a reply. God bless you, hope to hear from you soon.


Abdallah Reply:

Dear Friend

It’s Ramadan now, and we have to spend most of our time in praying and reading Quran as much as we can, in addition to fasting all day, so my time was really tight and if I had some free time I would like to spend it in worshipping as much as I can, so please I would like to ask you to postpone our conversation till end of Ramadan, but I promise you I will try my best to reply as soon as I can..

About your long reply, believe me, you just confirmed what I was saying to you, if a concept needs 10’s of pages just to be explained or understood or forced to be understood, how it’s possible to be from God for all mankind for their young and old, illiterate and educated, etc..!!
The real religion from God is explained in 1 line: ALLAH created us and sent us messengers to guide us, some people killed their Prophets, some worshiped them, and some followed them !! That is Islam…

But as I promise you, I will send you a detailed reply later on..

Take care,


Dear Friend, 

I hope you are fine and sorry for being late in my reply. I will start with the general questions before talking about Christianity.

1- The 2nd Heaven, is the second of seven heavens (universes) created by God, one over the other, starting by our space, they are created in different form than ours and have different creations too, but on the day of Judgment all will be gathered in one field for the questioning in front of Almighty God.

You can check the Story of Creation part 1 on, there is a section on the 7 universes.

2- About Quran saying that Christians worship 2 Gods: “Jesus and his mother”, the verses that you are referring to are the following:  

And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen). (116)
 "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world). (117)
"If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (118) [5:116-118]

These verses are the most important ever for all Christians, it shows the question that God will ask to Jesus (PBUH) in front all humanity on the Day of Judgment, if he said to his followers to worship him and his mother, and he will said never !!

And this will be a proof in front all who worshipped Jesus falsely and considered him as God instead (or beside) the Only God “ALLAH”.

Your question, why it’s Jesus and Mary only?

The answer is in the following story:

Once Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was reciting the following verses:

They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allâh, and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilâh (God - Allâh) Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory is to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)." (31) [At-tawbah]

So one of his companions, who was a Christian priest before accepting Islam, he said: “O prophet Muhammad we didn’t worship them”, then prophet said:

“Didn’t they allow what ALLAH prohibit and forbidden what ALLAH allowed, and you obeyed them in this?”

He said: “Yes”

Prophet said: “This is worshiping them”

From above, whenever you give a person or anything other than God an attribute or name or action, that is limited only to God, then you are making him as God, and among this, when Christians call Jesus or Mary for help or support although they are humans and can’t hear them, then they are making them “Gods”.

ALLAH says:

Say: Cry unto those (saints and angels) whom ye assume (to be gods) beside Him, yet they have no power to rid you of misfortune nor to change. [17:56]

And ALLAH considers everyone you call other than him as making him or her as God; ALLAH says:

So invoke not with Allâh another ilâh (god) lest you be among those who receive punishment. (26:213)

And now after understanding this concept, let’s see when Christians want to call for their help: what they mostly say:

“O Jesus or O Mary help us” !!

And when entering the churches, what are the statues and Idols that are filling all churches? They are idols of Jesus and Marry.

And what most Christians do when they want to pray in their rooms or in their streets or schools corners, they will stop in front of Marry and Jesus statues and pray.

This what means “worshiping them”.

3- About trinity, Quran mentioned it in many verses:

“O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. [4:171]

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. [5:73]

And it’s clearly saying: STOP it, don’t say it any more, it’s wrong concept and it’s from devil and it’s not true.

4- About saying that “Quran also teaches that Christians believe that God had sex with Mary to have a son?

If you read all these verses there is nothing mentioned about Sex, but about taking a wife or having sons or daughters as the infidels say about God, I will quote one of these verses saying the following:

Originator of the heavens and the earth! How should He have a son when there is for Him no spouse? And He had created everything and He is Knower of everything. (6:101)

This verse asking a logical question for all those who say that God had a son, asking:

If God had a Son, then from where he got a son? And there are only 2 possible answers:

1- God created his Son, then this son is one of his creation and never being a Son for him.

2- If God has to get a son like any other creation, then God must have a wife from where he will get his son from.

Of course, both are impossible to God, because if he wants to create his Son, then why to call him his begotten Son!! And why to create it as human being not like any other great creation, God created the whole universe, why he needs to create his Son like one of his smallest creatures ever as human being.

ALLAH asks this question to you:

Had Allâh willed to take a son (or offspring), He could have chosen whom He willed out of those whom He created. But glory is to Him! (He is above such things). He is Allâh, the One, the Irresistible. (4)
He has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He makes the night to go in the day and makes the day to go in the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each running (on a fixed course) for an appointed term. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving. (39:4-5)

And, if ALLAH wants to create a son from wife? Where is his wife? And will he create her too? And how he will get a son from here? How she will deliver a son?

ALL these questions are impossible to God, and impossible to accept by any human mind or even to answer.

ALLAH is the creator the self sufficient:

Say (O Muhammad (SAW)): "He is Allâh, (the) One. (1)
"Allâh-us-Samad (Allâh the Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, (He neither eats nor drinks)]. (2)
"He begets not, nor was He begotten; (3)
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (4) [112:1-4]

So, why he needs a Son or a wife like any other of his creations, we need sons to survive but why he needs one !!

Just ask yourself, why God needs to have a Son for?

Note, your division of God’s jobs between God, Son and Holy Ghost, is just a hallucination and guessing, nothing from Jesus words and nothing from God’s words, the One who build the whole universe of billions of light years wide, a space full of huge stars and planets alone, believe me he will not need anyone to help:

And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us.  [50:38]

5- Why I quote from bible? I already answered this many times before and as muslim we are ordered to believe in all God’s books even the previous ones, including: The Gospel, Torah, Psalms, book of Ibrahim, etc.. But we believe they were corrupted during old times because of bad writers or due to bad intentions, but whatever that agrees with Quran, then it’s most probably from God’s words. ALLAH says:

O you who believe, do believe in Allah and His Messenger and in the Book He has revealed to His Messenger and in the Books He has revealed earlier. Whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Books and His Messengers and the Last Day has indeed gone far astray. (4:136)

6- Jesus  and all prophets were muslims, and Islam is an Arabic word that means to submit one’s will to ALLAH’s will, so you will not find it as the same word in Bible, but as the same meaning, and what is better than Jesus explaining Islam in his own words:

"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

7- About saying: “Once Islam became powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and even murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church and “Christian” kings/emperors from Europe ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken….., Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.”

Sorry to tell you that there is big historical fault in your claim, since Muslims were able to conquer all the Mediterranean region within 70 years in addition to reaching China borders in the East during the 8th century, this progress was never done by Arab muslims only, but the muslims of the new countries, when they saw and felt the greatness of Islam, they accepted Islam and they carried it to their country neighbors.. The crusades were 500 years later than the great Islam entrance to all these regions.

Also, claiming the Christians were killed by Muslims or forced to convert to Islam, I advise you to ask any Arab Christian about that and check if any Muslim were forced to accept Islam ever, and you can check the millions of Europeans and Americans and South Americans who they are accepting Islam in hundreds and thousands every year, who is forcing them to accept Islam?
(watch the following as sample of accepting Islam in UK)

Islam is the religion of mercy and peace and a great blessing to Earth and to all human, and its God only accepted religion, Islam is the verb of doing Peace “Is – Sllam” where Sllam means peace, and Muslim scholars refer to the following verse from the bible as indication from God about the coming Islam to all Earth:

14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace (I-Salam), good will toward men. [Luke 2:14]

I may understand your ignorance about Islam and muslims, but I wish that you meet some muslims, so you change your mind and stop repeating such false claims.

I have to add one thing regarding me, Don’t ever think that I may change or even reconsider being a muslim, or trying to convert me, although I am trying to convert you, if ALLAH allows, because I will not change worshiping God who created me and created whole universe and will resurrected me on the day of Judgment and who owns the hell and heaven, to worship one of his creation whatever he is and who owns nothing beside God..

About the Hope and Fear, ALLAH says:

Allah has promised to the believers, male and female, gardens beneath which rivers flow, where they shall live forever, and good homes in gardens of eternity. And Allah’s pleasure is above all. That is the supreme success. (9:72)

If you asked the best student in a class if he will pass the next exam, what shall he answer you?
If he is smart enough he will say to you: “I hope so”, and we muslims say too: “we hope so too” that we’ll pass the Day of Judgment safely and enter the heaven, in God’s will.

8- Now let’s go to your explanation about Christianity:

I read your explanations and some of your articles, and really I want to confess that it’s really difficult to reach a common understanding with you, if we will continue like that !!

I really feel that we are talking about 2 different religions, I am talking about Jesus religion who came to the Children of Israel, who preached and taught for 7 years before risen to heaven, but you are talking about a new religion that was formed after Jesus by Paul or later priests who came after Jesus and formed what is called currently the “Christianity”, the differences are clearly as following:

-       Jesus is calling to worship only ONE GOD, and never mentioned Trinity in his words  although it’s a main pillar of Christianity, in contrary, he mentions clearly to worship One and Only GOD:
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. [Luke4:8]

-       You say that Jesus is a God without doubt, although Jesus himself said that later on people will go stray and worship him falsely:

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,  8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.  9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. [Mathew15:7-9]

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.  7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.  8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. [Mark7:6-9]

-      Jesus said follow the commandments to win the eternal life and keep repeating this all his time with Israel, where you say after the last dinner a new religion is formed and Christians has to worry nothing as Jesus had carried all their sins !!

-          Jesus said that a sign will be given like Jonah’s sign, as he stayed in whale’s belly for 3 days (alive) then the “son of man” means Jesus will stay 3 days in Earth alive too, you say that he died and resurrected himself as God, and the strange thing why he resurrected himself so hungry, that he asked for food the first thing !!..

-          Jesus was praying to God and fasting most of his days, and praying and bowing to God and fearing from his punishment and asking for his mercy and forgiveness, and you say that you are already forgiven and enjoying life with no need to fear from the day of Judgment !!

-      Jesus said that he didn’t come to change the religion law: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mathew [5:17], and the first thing that Christians did that they canceled the circumcision few decades after Jesus and since then the whole religion is changed.

9- About Trinity:

And all the references that you gave me are so ambiguous that mean nothing and don’t explain the religion of Christianity that you are talking about, as example:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [Genesis 1:1]

You claim that since God word used “Elohim” in plural, this refer to trinity, and this really a big mistake in understanding Semitic languages like Arabic, Hebrew, and Aramaic, and they all use plural form to represent “politeness” in speech and the respect to the called person, (even French language used “Vous” instead of “Tous” for respect) so is this a proof to change your religion of God from worshiping one God to three !!

Another reference is the following verse while God is talking to Jacob:

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Isaiah [48:16]

You consider it as proof for trinity, although it’s very clear that God is speaking to Jacob through the holy spirit, and this exactly what happened to prophet Muhammad too, and too many verses in Quran talked about the holy spirit and his support to all prophets and carry messages from God to them, is this a proof for trinity?!..

Every time you talk about trinity or try to validate such concept and I had to read your explanation I really feel sick, my mind hurts me and my stomach too, and I feel that I have to vomit !!!

I am not able to understand how much time you spend to write papers trying to convince yourself first and others with such impossible and illogical idea, it’s like a bug or worm that is inserted in mind and corrupt it, and really you have to remove it from your head and kill it forever, if you keep thinking in it, it will keep corrupting your mind and your soul..

There is nothing in whole universe a thing of 3 naturals together, and don’t think about the egg or ice cube or whatever, and don’t ever think what  your guessing that it’s from God, God already and clearly say it in a new revelation that came from him 5 centuries later: “Don’t say Three, STOP IT.”

My Friend,

I tried many times to convince you that there is no religion different than Islam carried by all prophets, and ALLAH is the only God who revealed to all of them, ALLAH says:

Surely, We have revealed to you as We have revealed to Nuh and to the prophets after him; and We have revealed to Ibrahim, Isma‘il, Ishaq, Ya‘qub and their children, and to ‘Isa, Ayyub, Yunus, Harun and Sulaiman, and We have given Zabur to Dawud . (163)

(We have sent) some Messengers We have already told you about, and some other Messengers We did not tell you about, and Allah has spoken to Musa verbally (164)
 Messengers giving good tidings and warning, so that people may have no plea against Allah after the Messengers (have come). Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. (4:165)

And there is only One God that we have to worship him alone without any partner, and God will question us on the Day of Judgment about our work, and he will not forgive ever anyone who took God instead of him or beside him, ALLAH says:

Surely, Allah does not forgive that a partner is ascribed to Him, and He forgives anything short of that for whomsoever He wills. Whoever ascribes a partner to Allah commits a terrible sin. [4:48]

And for anyone who did such sin, and whatever Good he did in this life, will be all vanished as it was never done, even if he or she were the most kindest person ever on Earth, being bad to their creator and worshiping a human or stone or angel will cause them to lose all what they’ve done in this life, ALLAH says:

And We shall turn unto the work they did and make it scattered motes. [25:23]

So, whether to accept this concept of life and live and die on it, and in God’s will be gathered with the believers on the last day to go to heaven.

Or, to stay thinking and thinking and guessing and trying to convince you with such “stupid and evil” concept like trinity, that even a small kid can’t understand it or accept it, and gamble your own soul forever in eternal torment, it’s your choice..


I tried to answer you about Christianity as much as I can, but from now on, I am ready to explain anything you want about Islam, I may not know everything but I will try to search for you and translate it from Arabic to English, if this can help.

For praying, I wish that you pray to yourself, just ask the following:

 “O God who created me, guide me to you. Amen.”

That’s all and see what will happen, don’t call Jesus or Mary or Holy Ghost or whatever, just call the God the Creator and hope he will show you the right path, Amen.

Take care,


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