This blog is dedicated for every person who likes to debate and argue in very scientific and logical method over Religious concepts in Christianity or in Islam.
If you are this person and have a beautiful mind, pure heart, and write “politely”, then you are most welcomed, otherwise don’t waste your time.
Debate with a Priest (1) - Is Jesus the LORD or not?
I was debating over emails with a Friend (Priest) that I would like to share it with you.
I do not find your explanation of Daniel 9. You did not point out the "missing."
Please explain the following verses. If Jesus is not part of the Godhead then what do they mean.
Col 2: 8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. 9For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And you are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and power,
If the complete fulness of Godhood was not in his body, what did this verse mean?
Philp 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (But he left it)
If he did not leave equality with God for a lower position (SON) then wnat did he leave behind him according to this verse?
1In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.,,,,, 14And the Word was made flesh and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
"The word was God" and the creator. Please do not use the JW argument of "a god."
kai those e:n ho logos is the order of words. The Subject of a predicate nominative has the article. It does not say the Word was God but God was The Word.
8But to the Son he said, your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom. 9You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows. 10And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands:
He is God and creator.
John 5:17But Jesus answered them, My Father works till now and I work. 18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
The Jews understood his claim that he and the Father are One.
John 8:58Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am
The Jews knew that jesus was identifying himself with the I AM of the bush whose occupant told Moses his name was YHWH. Jesus is YHWH.
Does your name meant Allah is your Father or Father of Allah?
Thanks My Friend for your kind reply.
I will try to answer you starting by the easiest question:
“Abdullah” came from 2 words in Arabic which means (Abed) Slave of ALLAH.
2-About your biblical quotations from "Paul Letters":
For Col 2: 8, Philp 2:5, they are from Paul letters, and we as muslims we don’t approve anything came from Paul, as we consider him the responsible for corrupting the message of Jesus (PBUH) and we say that he is the one who invented the idea of being Jesus “son of God” instead of “Messenger of God”
So, to refer to any of his words it will not help in our discussion as my aim is to defeat his words not to refer to them.
I just want to add that it’s not Islamic view only that Paul was the one who corrupted the original religion of Jesus, but even Jesus himself told that such thing will happen and Jesus dispels were all against Paul thoughts and changes on original Christianity, please check the following:
Introduction from Baranaba Bible, who was the writer of Jesus words, wherever he goes, and he is the one who Jesus said about him:
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him,Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?[Mark 12]
Baranaba started his bible by saying the following and indicating that Paul has been deceived:
Opening- True Gospel of Jesus, called Christ, a new prophet sent by God to the world: according to the description of Barnabas his apostle.
[Barnabas, apostle of Jesus the Nazarene, called Christ, to all them that dwell upon the earth desireth peace and consolation.
Dearly beloved the great and wonderful God hath during these past days visited us by his prophet Jesus Christ in great mercy of teaching and miracles, by reason whereof many, being deceived of Satan, under presence of piety, are preaching most impious doctrine, calling Jesus son of God, repudiating the circumcision ordained of God for ever, and permitting every unclean meat: among whom also Paul hath been deceived, whereof I speak not without grief;
for which cause I am writing that truth which I have seen and heard, in the intercourse that I have had with Jesus, in order that ye may be saved, and not be deceived of Satan and perish in the judgment of God.
Therefore beware of every one that preacheth unto you new doctrine contrary to that which I write, that ye may be saved eternally. The great God be with you and guard you from Satan and from every evil. Amen. ] Opening – Barnabas.
Not only Barnabas who had a conflict with Paul about his changes to original beliefs but the rest of Jesus disciples, please check what they said about Paul in the following documentary:
Unfortunately, even Islam suffered almost within the same period after prophet Muhammad (PBUH) death by 20-30 years, by someone called Ibn Saba’a who was a Jewish too then apparently converted to Islam and within short time he started promoting corrupted ideas such as that “Ali” cousin of Muhammad is the real messenger and he divided the Muslims since then into many groups, but of course the majority (over 90%) still on correct Islam (Sunnah).
3-About "God was the Word and Jesus is the Word"
I don’t want to surprise you, but even in Quran, ALLAH says that Jesus is the Word too, please read:
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. [4:171]
But being a word from God does not mean he becomes a God, because we are all words from God, he created us and everything in whole universe by only saying: “To Be, Then It Is”…
Being God is a word, it isn’t a correct expression said by John, God is the supreme power who created the whole universe, Hell, Heaven and all creatures, he is an ever living eternal God, and not a word of some letters which is not logic..
4-About "But to the Son he said, your throne, O God”
It’s quoted from the Hebrews, which also referred to one of Paul letters, please check the below from Wikipedia:
[The Epistle to the Hebrews is one of the books in the New Testament. Its author is not known.
No author is internally named. Since the earliest days of the Church, the authorship has been debated. In the 4th century, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo supported Paul's authorship: the Church largely agreed to include Hebrews as the fourteenth letter of Paul, and affirmed this authorship until the Reformation.]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Hebrews
Therefore, I can’t refer to it as I have to defeat it and not to consider as reference.
But, Jesus didn’t say even a single verse or word on how he created the universe, so how someone consider him the creator !!
6-About “My Father works till now and I work”
Let’s take this example:
If someone asked your son: are you busy now? And he answered: “Yes I am busy and my father is working too.”
Does this mean that you and your son are one entity? Dissolved inside each others, work, eat, drink, sleep all together !!
No, of course NOT.
Jesus was replying to the Jews because he healed a sick man on Saturday, and they considered this a Sin, and when he told them God works on Saturday too they hated him more.
Knowing that just the next verse states clearly that Jesus can’t do anything from himself, except what God had given to him as privilege to show God’s miracles to people and believe in him and follow what he is saying:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
The story behind this issue, that the Jews didn’t understand what Jesus meant and why he did that on Saturday, but Quran explained this to us very clearly in the following verses:
When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic; [5:110]
Which means that all miracles that were done by Jesus were given by ALLAH to him and this means exactly his phrase: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”
Also said in Quran:
And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.(2)
And (I come) confirming that whichwas before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. (3) [Al-Emran]
By working on Saturday: he meant that he was sent from God to make lawful some of that which was forbidden on them, including working on Saturday, but since they refused to follow him they stuck on this till today.
And by telling them the God is still working, that means all Work related to God, as he forgives to his salves, protects them, listens to them, he is the one who is holding the whole universe, etc.. and to refute their claim that they don’t work on Saturday because God rest on Saturday, which is very wrong and stupid word.
ALLAH says in Quran:
And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. [50:38]
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, andHe holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earthunless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful. [22:65]
Lo! Allahgraspeth the heavens and the earth that they deviate not, and if they were to deviate there is not one that could grasp them after Him. Lo! He is ever Clement, Forgiving. [35:40]
Allah receiveth (men's) souls at the time of their death, and that (soul) which dieth not (yet) in its sleep. He keepeth that (soul) for which Hehath ordained death anddismisseth the resttill an appointed term. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who take thought. [39:42]
7- “Before Abraham was, I am”
To give the correct meaning that “before Abraham being on Earth”, He was, and actually not only him, but we all were there in world of Spirits, please read the following post and it will explain to you everything, as spirits we were created millions of years before our existence on Earth:
And what proves this is the verse before, when Jesus said too:
56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
And this in the World of Spirits, where the souls of prophets shine like stars, and there is a similar story when our father Adam saw the spirit of David and it was shining too, so he asked God: who is the one among my children that his soul is shining like that? And when he was told that this is your son David, he asked how long he will live on Earth? The answer was 60 years. He asked Lord to give him 40 years more from Adam’s age, so David can live till 100 years.
The funny thing that when Adam saw the angel of Death, he was astonished and asked him why you came now to take my soul and die, I have 40 years left to live? He was reminded that he gave them to David, but he denied that !!
ALLAH by his mercy gave him 40 years more to live and keep the 40 years given to David.
8-About "Jesus as God":
If someone talked about you that you are an engineer and you are NOT and without any proof from your side, Shall we believe him?
Of course NOT.
God said about himself in Old testament:
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" [The Bible, Deut 6:4]
"I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." [The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor see them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God…" [The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]
You can’t make any other image like God from anything in heaven, or earth or underwater..
So, how you can say that Jesus is God, if GOD says that he doesn’t look like anything else ever..
And Jesus never said about himself, Absolutely EVER, He Never SAID even once very clearly:
I AM GOD !!
WORSHIP ME !!
I AM THE CREATOR !!
I AM WHO CREATED YOU !!
I AM THE LORD OF ALL UNIVERSE !!
He never said that and it’s impossible to be believed that too, can’t fit, impossible..
If someone can catch GOD easily and put him on cross and he is the one who created the whole universe, It’s impossible..
We can’t even look at sun directly by our naked eyes or they will burn, and it’s one of the smallest stars in the universe, how about GOD who created billions and billions of stars and some of them are millions times of Sun size, and just few people catch him like that and crucify him, this is IMPOSSIBLE !! Can’t fit even in a child brain..
“The term Allāh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- "the" and ʼilāh "deity, god" to al-lāh meaning "the [sole] deity, God" (ho theos monos). Cognates of the name "Allāh" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic. Biblical Hebrew mostly uses the plural form (but functional singular) Elohim. The corresponding Aramaic form is ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ in Biblical Aramaic and ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in Syriac.
And it was used by Jesus himself when talking about GOD, please hear it by yourself in the following scene of Passion the Christ, he calls his God: ALLAH.
10-About "YAHWEH" meaning:
"Yahweh" could theoretically be a hiph'il verb inflection of root h-w-y, with a meaning something like "he who causes to exist" or "who gives life".
Then it means exactly the same being for God, ALLAH, then we are talking about the same GOD, the Only Creator.
But Jesus means completely different and it’s not Yahweh, as shown below from Wikipedia:
[“Jesus” (pronounced /ˈdʒiːzəs/) is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a Hellenisation of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘), meaning "Yahweh delivers (or rescues)"."Christ" (pronounced /ˈkraɪst/) is a title derived from the Greek Χριστός (Christós), meaning the "Anointed One", a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Messiah).
A “Messiah,” in this context, is a king anointed at God’s direction or with God’s approval, and Christians identify Jesus as the one foretold by Hebrew prophets.]
In short: Jesus means one of the following:
Yahweh (Creator) delivers or rescues --> God’s messenger.
Or anointed one --> God’s messenger NOT a Son because you don’t usually select your son.
Or Messiah --> anointed at God’s direction with God’s approval.
All these meanings of his name “Jesus”, indicate that he was a selected messenger from GOD only, no more.